This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
1 [2]
16
Commerce / Media reports on recent academic study are biased against metal
« on: December 29, 2011, 06:38:01 PM »
Not a new story, but still an evolving one. Please let me know if you're aware of additional developments.
Media reports on recent academic study are biased against metal
Media reports on recent academic study are biased against metal
17
Chasm / philosophical or spiritual discourse on metal’s experiential nature
« on: December 24, 2011, 12:50:24 AM »
From my blog:
The state of discourse regarding metal’s experiential nature from philosophical or spiritual perspectives (full title did not fit in forum subject bar above)
Philosophical or spiritual examination of metal’s experiential nature seems lacking in the marketplace of ideas. The lack of consensus as to the nature of the human condition, and the extent to which complicated subjective experiences are involved, makes it very difficult to converse in this area of thought. People are motivated to listen to metal for a variety of reasons such as emotional catharsis, entertainment, socialization, rebellion, etc, and while these motivations should all be recognized they do not pertain to the present topic. Just as the state of human consciousness in the world today is very poor, in corollary these motivations for listening to metal do not pertain to the music’s higher experiential potential, which certainly helps explain why so little discourse about it exists. A text examining the experiential nature of metal from a philosophical or spiritual perspective would need also examine the nature of the human condition, and moreover it would have to argue for a certain view of the human condition, it would have to create a space for itself in an inhospitable marketplace of ideas almost as magically as metal engages the listener.
Music can be a very powerful thing, in its impact on consciousness and as an expression of or banner for philosophical or spiritual paradigms, and I firmly believe the potential exists for music and paradigm to evolve mutually. This potential is frequently echoed in the very accounts and commentaries of metal musicians themselves, the artwork and symbols they employ, the theater they perform, the lyrics they choose and, indeed I would submit, the very sounds they craft. Certainly in some cases the affair may admittedly have more to do with branding and marketing. But in other cases, if anything is to help metal tackle and rise above the poverty of human consciousness—metal the product of this consciousness in the first place—is it not precisely the music itself, in the musician’s dissociatively-inspired conception of it, which tends to circumvent the conscious mind altogether, and be uniquely capable of expressing that fateful essence not capturable by rigid conventions of image, word or ritual? The trouble is, then, to with an earthly consciousness actually recognize and identify musical qualities specifically, lest every teenager’s exclamation of metal’s awesomeness be taken without a grain of salt.
The distinction between the metal critic and the metal academic is significant, yet underlying both occupations is largely the same stuff in what the listener’s personality type and paradigm are, how different metal affects different personality types and paradigms differently, and what metal is enjoyable and healthy for which personality types and paradigms. Yet in their reviews and recommendations the critic has only subjective tastes and arbitrary value judgements to offer, as if musical preference hinges on something resembling luck without deep and complex processes of causation underneath, and in their studies and publications academics have only objective, tangible analysis and speculative exploration to offer. It is very difficult to bring into the picture that common denominator shared by all people, as political correctness insists on tolerance and the lines delineating academic fields of study are dissociatively secular. In my view the problem is not tolerance or secularism, it is that the questions of philosophy and spirituality are abstracted, removed from all equations and routinely hidden in the blindness of faith, in a hopeless and perverse marketplace of ideas convinced the answers are beyond reach.
I would submit the aspect of metal’s growling vocals as one example of philosophical and spiritual ignorance towards the music’s experiential nature. While many people say all growling vocals sound the same (and cringe at the sound of them), serious metal listeners recognize a wide variety of growling vocal styles exist. At the same time, where the human voice in music can convey emotion exceptionally well, perhaps better than any instrument, and where growling vocals are particularly distinctive and intense, serious metal listeners tend to be strangely incapable of articulating why they like certain styles of growling vocals and dislike, sometimes passionately, other styles of growling vocals. When metal critics comment on growling vocals they usually describe them by comparing them to those of other bands, or by indicating their sonal qualities such as volume, raspiness, level of pitch, etc. At the same time, we have all probably scratched our heads on numerous occasions wondering why bands producing otherwise great music would employ such awful growling vocals, how there could be such a disconnect.
Metal’s emotional content is highly complex and often relates back to underlying paradigms sought to be expressed by the musicians, yet rarely do metal listeners express their preference for certain growling vocal styles over others in terms of emotional content and corresponding philosophical or spiritual integrity. For example, while many metal listeners often denounce emo music, at the same time they may profess to love black metal bands featuring horrific, agonized, desparaging shrieks that could certainly be argued to be emo-esque. More broadly, if according to one’s paradigm one values in life for instance such things as immortality, strength, determination, courage, passion and nobility, then in much black metal one would find only the antithesis of these values in such things as fear, mortality and death, unconditional surrender, chaos, sorrow, hate, wretchedness and disgust, etc. I for one walk the left-hand path and hold the former set of values, find utterly unappealing the latter set, and find it most remarkable how the two sets, while practically opposite, occupy similar spaces in the black metal sub-genre without many questions being raised about it. (Examples of black metal songs I love would include Moonblood’s Blut Und Krieg, Satyricon’s Mother North, and Ulver’s entire Bergtatt album.)
While I only listen to metal that appeals to me on the level of my left-hand path paradigm, in much of the music I listen to I find the underlying paradigm and lyrics quite unappealing, except I interpret the music much differently than how the musicians intended—purely the sound resonates in brilliant harmony with my left-hand path paradigm, I ignore what I may be aware of about the musician’s underlying paradigm, and thankfully I am usually unable to decipher the lyrics within the distortion of the growling vocals. This indicates to me that even the makers of the music, the musicians themselves, are often somewhat ignorant of the music’s deeper core, and at the same time it reinforces in me the notion that the realm of aggression—shared by basically all darker metal bands regardless of their more specific value sets—is an enormously complex, subtle and rich space capturing a wide range of value sets and indeed possessing transformative capacity from more ‘poor’ value sets to more ‘enlightened’ value sets, as exemplified in the not-uncommon accounts of black metal listeners reporting Zen-like experiences of catharsis and transcendence. By the same token, surely aggressive music also has the capacity to impact one’s consciousness negatively, yet when academics debate whether or not metal can be linked to things like depression or delinquency rarely if ever do they distinguish between the various philosophical and spiritual impulses that profoundly characterize different types of metal.
It is no wonder these things are rarely talked about as, to recapitulate, humanity is terribly ignorant and divided about matters of the spirit. But it would be foolish to consider metal only in isolation from its deeper essence, considering the sheer power of music which begs to be better understood, respected and manipulated. Perhaps more than any other musical genre metal values authenticity, so when the musicians themselves frequently place great importance on aspects of philosophy, spirituality, religion or occultism incorporated into their art, are we to examine the matter further or rather take the genre to be something of a sham? Where a few minutes may be (well-)spent denouncing the mind-dumbing, spirit-numbing garbage generated in the mainstream music industry, entire evenings may be spent examining and arguing about the magic offered rather uniquely from metal. In fact entire symposiums were occupied with such discourse, Black Metal Theory symposiums which since 2009 represent an important foray into this area of thought.
The state of discourse regarding metal’s experiential nature from philosophical or spiritual perspectives (full title did not fit in forum subject bar above)
Philosophical or spiritual examination of metal’s experiential nature seems lacking in the marketplace of ideas. The lack of consensus as to the nature of the human condition, and the extent to which complicated subjective experiences are involved, makes it very difficult to converse in this area of thought. People are motivated to listen to metal for a variety of reasons such as emotional catharsis, entertainment, socialization, rebellion, etc, and while these motivations should all be recognized they do not pertain to the present topic. Just as the state of human consciousness in the world today is very poor, in corollary these motivations for listening to metal do not pertain to the music’s higher experiential potential, which certainly helps explain why so little discourse about it exists. A text examining the experiential nature of metal from a philosophical or spiritual perspective would need also examine the nature of the human condition, and moreover it would have to argue for a certain view of the human condition, it would have to create a space for itself in an inhospitable marketplace of ideas almost as magically as metal engages the listener.
Music can be a very powerful thing, in its impact on consciousness and as an expression of or banner for philosophical or spiritual paradigms, and I firmly believe the potential exists for music and paradigm to evolve mutually. This potential is frequently echoed in the very accounts and commentaries of metal musicians themselves, the artwork and symbols they employ, the theater they perform, the lyrics they choose and, indeed I would submit, the very sounds they craft. Certainly in some cases the affair may admittedly have more to do with branding and marketing. But in other cases, if anything is to help metal tackle and rise above the poverty of human consciousness—metal the product of this consciousness in the first place—is it not precisely the music itself, in the musician’s dissociatively-inspired conception of it, which tends to circumvent the conscious mind altogether, and be uniquely capable of expressing that fateful essence not capturable by rigid conventions of image, word or ritual? The trouble is, then, to with an earthly consciousness actually recognize and identify musical qualities specifically, lest every teenager’s exclamation of metal’s awesomeness be taken without a grain of salt.
The distinction between the metal critic and the metal academic is significant, yet underlying both occupations is largely the same stuff in what the listener’s personality type and paradigm are, how different metal affects different personality types and paradigms differently, and what metal is enjoyable and healthy for which personality types and paradigms. Yet in their reviews and recommendations the critic has only subjective tastes and arbitrary value judgements to offer, as if musical preference hinges on something resembling luck without deep and complex processes of causation underneath, and in their studies and publications academics have only objective, tangible analysis and speculative exploration to offer. It is very difficult to bring into the picture that common denominator shared by all people, as political correctness insists on tolerance and the lines delineating academic fields of study are dissociatively secular. In my view the problem is not tolerance or secularism, it is that the questions of philosophy and spirituality are abstracted, removed from all equations and routinely hidden in the blindness of faith, in a hopeless and perverse marketplace of ideas convinced the answers are beyond reach.
I would submit the aspect of metal’s growling vocals as one example of philosophical and spiritual ignorance towards the music’s experiential nature. While many people say all growling vocals sound the same (and cringe at the sound of them), serious metal listeners recognize a wide variety of growling vocal styles exist. At the same time, where the human voice in music can convey emotion exceptionally well, perhaps better than any instrument, and where growling vocals are particularly distinctive and intense, serious metal listeners tend to be strangely incapable of articulating why they like certain styles of growling vocals and dislike, sometimes passionately, other styles of growling vocals. When metal critics comment on growling vocals they usually describe them by comparing them to those of other bands, or by indicating their sonal qualities such as volume, raspiness, level of pitch, etc. At the same time, we have all probably scratched our heads on numerous occasions wondering why bands producing otherwise great music would employ such awful growling vocals, how there could be such a disconnect.
Metal’s emotional content is highly complex and often relates back to underlying paradigms sought to be expressed by the musicians, yet rarely do metal listeners express their preference for certain growling vocal styles over others in terms of emotional content and corresponding philosophical or spiritual integrity. For example, while many metal listeners often denounce emo music, at the same time they may profess to love black metal bands featuring horrific, agonized, desparaging shrieks that could certainly be argued to be emo-esque. More broadly, if according to one’s paradigm one values in life for instance such things as immortality, strength, determination, courage, passion and nobility, then in much black metal one would find only the antithesis of these values in such things as fear, mortality and death, unconditional surrender, chaos, sorrow, hate, wretchedness and disgust, etc. I for one walk the left-hand path and hold the former set of values, find utterly unappealing the latter set, and find it most remarkable how the two sets, while practically opposite, occupy similar spaces in the black metal sub-genre without many questions being raised about it. (Examples of black metal songs I love would include Moonblood’s Blut Und Krieg, Satyricon’s Mother North, and Ulver’s entire Bergtatt album.)
While I only listen to metal that appeals to me on the level of my left-hand path paradigm, in much of the music I listen to I find the underlying paradigm and lyrics quite unappealing, except I interpret the music much differently than how the musicians intended—purely the sound resonates in brilliant harmony with my left-hand path paradigm, I ignore what I may be aware of about the musician’s underlying paradigm, and thankfully I am usually unable to decipher the lyrics within the distortion of the growling vocals. This indicates to me that even the makers of the music, the musicians themselves, are often somewhat ignorant of the music’s deeper core, and at the same time it reinforces in me the notion that the realm of aggression—shared by basically all darker metal bands regardless of their more specific value sets—is an enormously complex, subtle and rich space capturing a wide range of value sets and indeed possessing transformative capacity from more ‘poor’ value sets to more ‘enlightened’ value sets, as exemplified in the not-uncommon accounts of black metal listeners reporting Zen-like experiences of catharsis and transcendence. By the same token, surely aggressive music also has the capacity to impact one’s consciousness negatively, yet when academics debate whether or not metal can be linked to things like depression or delinquency rarely if ever do they distinguish between the various philosophical and spiritual impulses that profoundly characterize different types of metal.
It is no wonder these things are rarely talked about as, to recapitulate, humanity is terribly ignorant and divided about matters of the spirit. But it would be foolish to consider metal only in isolation from its deeper essence, considering the sheer power of music which begs to be better understood, respected and manipulated. Perhaps more than any other musical genre metal values authenticity, so when the musicians themselves frequently place great importance on aspects of philosophy, spirituality, religion or occultism incorporated into their art, are we to examine the matter further or rather take the genre to be something of a sham? Where a few minutes may be (well-)spent denouncing the mind-dumbing, spirit-numbing garbage generated in the mainstream music industry, entire evenings may be spent examining and arguing about the magic offered rather uniquely from metal. In fact entire symposiums were occupied with such discourse, Black Metal Theory symposiums which since 2009 represent an important foray into this area of thought.
18
Chasm / Why do we fight for what we fight for?
« on: December 10, 2011, 05:14:13 AM »
Let's assume for a second that what we fight for is logical in that it represents the best path forward for humanity - nihilism, conservatism, etc. Why do we fight for it? If we have it for ourselves that is one thing, but why do we wish to share it with others? Brotherhood? On what basis should we concern ourselves with others?
19
Chasm / wisdom and the lack thereof - a philosophical or spiritual matter?
« on: November 27, 2011, 05:25:13 AM »
People IRL often point out how smart I am, and in effect admit they're not as smart. Often I try to correct their perception, pointing out that intellectual intelligence is hardly the sole measure of a person's virtue, for example there's physical intelligence (athletes, martial artists, etc), emotional intelligence, social intelligence (good with people / can read people), sense of humor, determination, passion, patience, compassion, intuition, courageousness, honesty, creativity, etc, all sorts of other positive attributes. But I say this for their benefit, and what I don't mention is that overall I believe wisdom encompasses and transcends all these things, and I think it's crucial to distinguish between intelligence and wisdom.
I believe the roots of wisdom are a great mystery, perhaps more evident when wisdom is highly manifest in a person--I consider myself wise and understand the nature of wisdom--but less evident in terms of the nature of the disconnect or separation between the potential of wisdom and the state of severe lack of wisdom present in so many people. Spiritual understanding through the ages does much to clarify the nature of wisdom per se, but the nature of its lacking seems far more ambiguous, as exemplified in the popular notion that advanced spiritual discourse can be understood by less-wise people only very poorly, and when seeking to impart wisdom to these people then the language and style of writing used must be formulated very specifically, perhaps being one of the finest and most delicate arts there is. To navigate the other person's ego so masterfully that the words you choose are indeed the perfect ones to hit the other person precisely behind the elaborate maze of their ego's defenses.
One of the most puzzling questions I encounter is what made me special so that I could realize this state of awareness I have; like when soldiers come home from war and ask themselves why were they spared. Was it sheer luck? I know I only truly existed once I attained self-realization, everything before then was an incomplete circle, fundamentally different on so many levels. It was not at all a steady, linear progression, there was most certainly a series of--or perhaps for clarity's sake a singular--instance of a singularity, black hole, that which does not conform and cannot possibly be expressed with previous terms or previous concepts. I continue to search for the best way to express this transcendent element of the human experience in terms and concepts understandable to others, and while I believe I've made progress it remains a challenge.
I know the importance of philosophical awareness is championed on this forum, but I wonder to what extent this includes spiritual awareness in terms of actual wisdom (some posters subscribe to Hindu spiritual views I believe)? For example, how can it be said that some people are genetically inferior, if we do not understand the link between the state of wisdom and the state of lack of wisdom? Considering intellectual intelligence and all the other positive attributes I mentioned before, what combination of these qualities are necessarily required, if any, in order for the possibility of ever attaining spiritual wisdom to be honestly realistic? Is a quality of actual wisdom itself also passed on in a person's heredity, except not through their genetic heredity but their spiritual heredity (I know many posters on this forum subscribe to the notion of reincarnation)? Or how, whether or not wisdom is inherited or acquired in life or both, how does this wisdom manifest in modern times--isn't it perfectly plausible to hypothesize those who are the wisest often have the least success coping with modern society and thus develop the gravest psychological ailments and appear for all intents and purposes to be some of the least wise?
I believe the roots of wisdom are a great mystery, perhaps more evident when wisdom is highly manifest in a person--I consider myself wise and understand the nature of wisdom--but less evident in terms of the nature of the disconnect or separation between the potential of wisdom and the state of severe lack of wisdom present in so many people. Spiritual understanding through the ages does much to clarify the nature of wisdom per se, but the nature of its lacking seems far more ambiguous, as exemplified in the popular notion that advanced spiritual discourse can be understood by less-wise people only very poorly, and when seeking to impart wisdom to these people then the language and style of writing used must be formulated very specifically, perhaps being one of the finest and most delicate arts there is. To navigate the other person's ego so masterfully that the words you choose are indeed the perfect ones to hit the other person precisely behind the elaborate maze of their ego's defenses.
One of the most puzzling questions I encounter is what made me special so that I could realize this state of awareness I have; like when soldiers come home from war and ask themselves why were they spared. Was it sheer luck? I know I only truly existed once I attained self-realization, everything before then was an incomplete circle, fundamentally different on so many levels. It was not at all a steady, linear progression, there was most certainly a series of--or perhaps for clarity's sake a singular--instance of a singularity, black hole, that which does not conform and cannot possibly be expressed with previous terms or previous concepts. I continue to search for the best way to express this transcendent element of the human experience in terms and concepts understandable to others, and while I believe I've made progress it remains a challenge.
I know the importance of philosophical awareness is championed on this forum, but I wonder to what extent this includes spiritual awareness in terms of actual wisdom (some posters subscribe to Hindu spiritual views I believe)? For example, how can it be said that some people are genetically inferior, if we do not understand the link between the state of wisdom and the state of lack of wisdom? Considering intellectual intelligence and all the other positive attributes I mentioned before, what combination of these qualities are necessarily required, if any, in order for the possibility of ever attaining spiritual wisdom to be honestly realistic? Is a quality of actual wisdom itself also passed on in a person's heredity, except not through their genetic heredity but their spiritual heredity (I know many posters on this forum subscribe to the notion of reincarnation)? Or how, whether or not wisdom is inherited or acquired in life or both, how does this wisdom manifest in modern times--isn't it perfectly plausible to hypothesize those who are the wisest often have the least success coping with modern society and thus develop the gravest psychological ailments and appear for all intents and purposes to be some of the least wise?
20
Chasm / The problem is not all of us
« on: November 22, 2011, 04:39:41 AM »
Reading the most recent threads almost made me quit this forum because I thought I couldn't possibly promote my point of view successfully here, it's so opposite from all of yours.
Then I stopped for a second and noticed something. Everyone's on my side. I agree with the majority of posts in this forum. I remember the reason I originally joined this forum.
We all agree on so much here, why the hell is practically every major multi-page thread devoted to only the issues which divide us the most and capture us in the same old back-and-forth arguments?
When you're fighting against irrationality, you can't win, it just gets stuck in a perpetual cycle, if the person on the other end is sufficiently deluded. And you would have to be deluded too, to keep entertaining them.
It seems a small handful of posters on this forum frequently start an outlandish, undeniably stupid and irrational threads, and we're all so incredulous of it that we flock to counter the argument.
As if we're so concerned for the integrity of this forum. It was this same handful of posters who are so quick to point out that we shouldn't feed the trolls.
This is exactly the same mess our politicians are in, and the same mess all citizens seem to be in.
Why don't we investigate how much we can accomplish when we're all on the same page? Imagine if we broke the DLA's concepts down into nodes, and if we stuck mainly with those nodes all of us agree on. Imagine how many members would be willing to contribute to the website's development!
Then we can give individual people, or small groups of people, separate nodes, representing different points of view and not all agreeing with each other. Now DLA offers readers sound information we can all agree on, and the reader is free to make up their own minds about the rest.
As I like to say, if truth is logical, can't it be successfully conveyed as surely as the rigours of logic are unforgiving?
How much can we build, as a website and a community, remaining within the bounds of what most of us agree with? Maybe not much. But I can tell you one thing, this constant cycle of debunking stupidity only so that more stupidity arises the next day, this is toxic, to the website as a whole and to all of us members individually.
I love watching a gruesome car crash as much as the next person, but when the care's coming towards me I get out of the way. I don't want to come to this website to laugh at how stupid people are, as tempting as it may be, I can get that many other places. I want to come here for something productive! But the website is being killed, if it isn't already dead.
We agree on so many things. The importance and beauty of the environment. The problem of over-consumption. A disdain for simple-minded distractions. A dislike of hypocrisy, fake-ness and mainstream society. A passionate and determined desire to attack life head-on. A fundamental conviction that a successful life takes root at deeper philosophical or spiritual levels rather than on the surface.
NAME ME ONE POPULAR METAL WEBSITE THAT SUCCESSFULLY CONVEYS THESE THEMES AND MERGES THEM WITH THE GREATNESS OF METAL. How grand that would be.
I know these basic truths seem so simple and maybe even trivial to us, but most people don't get it yet, for most people it's very advanced. Oh but that's right let's not try to do the tiniest bit of outreach, let's just kill all those other people.
No metal website is currently doing it, perhaps least of all the DLA because we give it such a bad name. NO METAL WEBSITE EVEN COMES CLOSE TO DOING IT.
You have to walk before you can run. Keep going in circles, or be willing to make compromise and get actually moving, it's your choice.
A handful of fuckers stole your website from you. Take it back.
Then I stopped for a second and noticed something. Everyone's on my side. I agree with the majority of posts in this forum. I remember the reason I originally joined this forum.
We all agree on so much here, why the hell is practically every major multi-page thread devoted to only the issues which divide us the most and capture us in the same old back-and-forth arguments?
When you're fighting against irrationality, you can't win, it just gets stuck in a perpetual cycle, if the person on the other end is sufficiently deluded. And you would have to be deluded too, to keep entertaining them.
It seems a small handful of posters on this forum frequently start an outlandish, undeniably stupid and irrational threads, and we're all so incredulous of it that we flock to counter the argument.
As if we're so concerned for the integrity of this forum. It was this same handful of posters who are so quick to point out that we shouldn't feed the trolls.
This is exactly the same mess our politicians are in, and the same mess all citizens seem to be in.
Why don't we investigate how much we can accomplish when we're all on the same page? Imagine if we broke the DLA's concepts down into nodes, and if we stuck mainly with those nodes all of us agree on. Imagine how many members would be willing to contribute to the website's development!
Then we can give individual people, or small groups of people, separate nodes, representing different points of view and not all agreeing with each other. Now DLA offers readers sound information we can all agree on, and the reader is free to make up their own minds about the rest.
As I like to say, if truth is logical, can't it be successfully conveyed as surely as the rigours of logic are unforgiving?
How much can we build, as a website and a community, remaining within the bounds of what most of us agree with? Maybe not much. But I can tell you one thing, this constant cycle of debunking stupidity only so that more stupidity arises the next day, this is toxic, to the website as a whole and to all of us members individually.
I love watching a gruesome car crash as much as the next person, but when the care's coming towards me I get out of the way. I don't want to come to this website to laugh at how stupid people are, as tempting as it may be, I can get that many other places. I want to come here for something productive! But the website is being killed, if it isn't already dead.
We agree on so many things. The importance and beauty of the environment. The problem of over-consumption. A disdain for simple-minded distractions. A dislike of hypocrisy, fake-ness and mainstream society. A passionate and determined desire to attack life head-on. A fundamental conviction that a successful life takes root at deeper philosophical or spiritual levels rather than on the surface.
NAME ME ONE POPULAR METAL WEBSITE THAT SUCCESSFULLY CONVEYS THESE THEMES AND MERGES THEM WITH THE GREATNESS OF METAL. How grand that would be.
I know these basic truths seem so simple and maybe even trivial to us, but most people don't get it yet, for most people it's very advanced. Oh but that's right let's not try to do the tiniest bit of outreach, let's just kill all those other people.
No metal website is currently doing it, perhaps least of all the DLA because we give it such a bad name. NO METAL WEBSITE EVEN COMES CLOSE TO DOING IT.
You have to walk before you can run. Keep going in circles, or be willing to make compromise and get actually moving, it's your choice.
A handful of fuckers stole your website from you. Take it back.
21
Chasm / Conservatives overcompensate for their 'short stature'
« on: October 11, 2011, 06:50:06 AM »22
Commerce / Polish death metal commercial by candidate running for political office
« on: October 07, 2011, 02:22:40 AM »
1 [2]