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Messages - Imposition

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16
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 23, 2014, 03:19:01 AM »
Well, if results - so far - are anything to go by, those high-sounding qualities lose some of their shine, no?

I don't have an issue with 'justice' as much as pluralism (or cultural equality). There is a distinct tendency among intellectuals, politicians, and anyone with an establishment reputation to not be seen as advancing a conception of the good (when in fact by not doing this you are tacitly doing this - your conception of the good is extreme pluralism).

I think 'justice' is important, and in many ways our legal system is more just than in the past, as far as non-arbitrary.

17
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 23, 2014, 03:14:18 AM »
Justice doesn't seem to equate to victimizing people for not thinking one's own adopted thoughts.
Equality doesn't seem to equate with thoroughly trashing people who don't necessarily agree.
How are these qualities positive?

I meant positive in terms of a substantive thesis. Something really there as opposed to merely an absence of something. I didn't mean morally.

18
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 23, 2014, 03:02:13 AM »
Ultimately, this dichotomy does not really exist because Leftism is not really about anything. It is just against.

I think people on the left are motivated by positive concerns. Justice and equality.

People on the right are motivated by hierarchy (inequality) and purity.

Janathan Heidt did some interesting research on this.

19
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 23, 2014, 02:58:10 AM »
The value of empiricism is that it was no longer enough to simply shore up an argument or a position that met the rules of logic, you had to demonstrate it. It had to be proven against reality as it can be repeatedly ddemonstrated to other observers.

Yep Nihilism in action. Some people even think empirical discoveries in quantum physics have challenged certain rules of logic, but I couldn't elaborate on this.

The limitations are obvious. Empiricism is not applicable to metaphysics which is "the stuff beyond physics." Empiricism is time sensitive. Pure positivism could be used to reject truths which are true but lack in evidence buried over time, burned, destroyed.

What is the alternative you are vaguely gesturing at? What is this alternative 'stuff', this knowledge which is not 'time sensitive', eternal? Mathematics? Sure. Logic? Sure. What else? Come! Let us have it.

With all respect, your whole post was pointing out limitations in empiricism without offering a positive view of the alternative. (I think I know why...).

I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by alternatives?

That's what I was asking you! Did you indicate that empirical knowledge is limited in its scope, in some sense. If so, what is the other knowledge being left out?

20
Metal / Re: Imposition - Memento Mori (DM.org user composition)
« on: February 21, 2014, 07:13:45 AM »
This is certainly not a 'bump' effort.

Any suggestions for how to get your music heard a bit more around the interwebs? I'm struggling to get this out there - my friends who are into music aren't into black metal, and I have recently moved cities.

Metal archives rejected it as 'too short'.

Anyone with experience in online promotion?

Cheers!


21
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 20, 2014, 11:41:56 PM »
The value of empiricism is that it was no longer enough to simply shore up an argument or a position that met the rules of logic, you had to demonstrate it. It had to be proven against reality as it can be repeatedly ddemonstrated to other observers.

Yep Nihilism in action. Some people even think empirical discoveries in quantum physics have challenged certain rules of logic, but I couldn't elaborate on this.

The limitations are obvious. Empiricism is not applicable to metaphysics which is "the stuff beyond physics." Empiricism is time sensitive. Pure positivism could be used to reject truths which are true but lack in evidence buried over time, burned, destroyed.

What is the alternative you are vaguely gesturing at? What is this alternative 'stuff', this knowledge which is not 'time sensitive', eternal? Mathematics? Sure. Logic? Sure. What else? Come! Let us have it.

With all respect, your whole post was pointing out limitations in empiricism without offering a positive view of the alternative. (I think I know why...).


22
Interzone / Re: The way things are - The way things ought to be
« on: February 20, 2014, 06:29:33 AM »
I realize you don't enjoy the music on this site, but it makes a LOT of sense to me as to why you're here now.

I can understand the (unfortunate) need for a moderator, and Crow seems like a nice soul. But the incessant insistence, on his part, of special access to knowledge inaccessible (isn't that just irrefutable as well) to others is a little insulting. You can't refute it, you can't argue with it, because if you don't get it, well that's BECAUSE YOU CAN'T - which is totally self contained and shut off from other people. No wonder this sort of position is a strong one - because by its very nature disagreeing with it in effect validates it.

Anyone they like can disagree with me, if they are willing to make a bit of effort (or not, if I'm just wrong). I will not tell them that my knowledge is of a different sort, and inaccessible to them, if they happen to present a good consideration against a position I advocate.

This is not a Tao forum, let's all keep that in mind. It is a metal forum. People might be fearless, a little feral in spirit, noble, but willing to make the kill when the opportunity arises for the greater good. Concerned with the timeless, the ancient, but also the modernist (metal is not just traditional in spirit - remember the distortion, the amplification, the 'confronting' nature of the art). Most importantly, there is no 'people should'. At least, there is dialectic and agon - i.e. contest - to determine who 'should'. It doesn't matter if we 'don't get Tao, for example.

I'd say the good parts of your Crow's philosophy, from a utilitarian perspective, come in when you smooth out conflict and disagreement and contest, so things don't descend into anarchy and mudslinging. A warmer touch.

23
Interzone / Re: The way things are - The way things ought to be
« on: February 20, 2014, 06:23:13 AM »


Your example of the Beatles (a group I have never enjoyed but that's besides the point) illustrates why I - and many others here - eventually sought out music that broke the repetitive verse-chorus-verse chorus pap of the majority of pop music.

Interestingly, Beatles were one of the 'prime movers' here - in later albums than 'yeah yeah'. Sgt Peppers was massively influential on the impending english prog movement. Masses of layering, more thematic structures, classical aesthetics. This was not a live album. In fact, they stopped playing life just before this (apparently because girls would just stand there screaming to such a extent the show was disrupted).

24
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 20, 2014, 01:32:33 AM »
I think you're right Crow, and i've been trying to instill the correct definition - science is not an individual, it is an institution. Science is a collective practice. This institution is comprised of checks and balances, peer-review, experimental norms, and other emergent phenomenon that ensure individual egos DO NOT take the cake. As such, it is the least egotistical endeavor I can think of at the present time. As far as humanistic goes? I don't know what he meant, but possibly something like "scientists they get together with their telescopes and their computers and Nek Minnit god and jesus and higher propose all gone".

Of course this might be the case, but it is rarely the fucking reason why individual scientists starting doing science in the first place. It is a reflection of REALITY LACKING GOD and stuff. Einstein, for example, wanted to catch god at his handy-work.

New-atheists USE science as a weapon for humanism, but that is their agenda, and not specifically the agenda of the INSTITUTION OF SCIENCE (which has no agenda - beyond a concern for mechanisms, evidence, laws, cause & effect).

[It's strange to be the resident 'modern' or enlightenment defender around here, as at any other time in my life I'm the conservative - however, I will embrace this role and champion it as there is nobility and profundity bound up with it all]

25
Metal / Re: Ildjarn bandcamp
« on: February 19, 2014, 11:33:07 PM »
Thanks I like it.

Perhaps Nidhogg keeps said savant qualities in check.

26
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 19, 2014, 11:29:03 PM »
Please read my posts in the hubris of science thread, KingdomGone. Then tell me whether science is operating via the EGO, or rather hand-wavy posts like yours - which offer no reasons, no deep considerations, no sacrifice, and nothing but what seems like a crude mental reflex or spasm in response to a stimuli you don't like.

In what way is science 'egoist'. Please read my aforementioned posts before responding, otherwise we will engage in yet another mud-slinging match.

27
Interzone / Re: The 'hubris' of atheism/science/physicalism - and the rest
« on: February 19, 2014, 02:06:48 AM »
Between Imposition and Vigilance, you two really woke me up.
I can be downright scary when I'm awake.
I'm gonna try to go back to sleep again, OK?
Before I completely overrun the forum.

And I should get back to work. Good day to you all.

28
Interzone / Re: The 'hubris' of atheism/science/physicalism - and the rest
« on: February 19, 2014, 02:05:54 AM »
Ah! But don't you sometimes want to know what is at the bottom of a quark, if other life exists in the universe, where matter goes when it enters a black hole, what was 'there' before the big bang, and what will happen to the universe?

The religious parts of my brain fire incessantly to these questions :)

29
Interzone / Re: The 'hubris' of atheism/science/physicalism - and the rest
« on: February 19, 2014, 01:53:27 AM »
Agreed. Science is indispensable to human achievement.
Unfortunately, it is what humans use it for that gets it an understandably well-deserved bad rep.

Agreed. Valuable, useful things can be abused and even the most nourishing food can kill you if you eat too much.

30
Interzone / Re: The 'hubris' of atheism/science/physicalism - and the rest
« on: February 19, 2014, 01:44:46 AM »
Thanks.

I don't believe individuals can rid themselves of EGO. I think it needs institutions - collective practices (not necessary a 'state' - I mean to stay away from politics/ethics here). THIS is why science is making (ontological) progress - because its not about the individual. You are criticized, lynched, tested, cross-examined, peer-reviewed, and ultimately will do something small and arduous for your career - but this thing will be a small piece in a bigger, more glorious pie.

Just like reality in-itself, science is an IMPOSITION upon the individual, not an avenue for warm self-fulfillment or some instant achievement of mystical union of self with all. It's hard, boring, tedious, and compartmentalized - but when you look back on it from a higher perspective (such as when reading a popular science book on cosmology, or a paul davies book) - it is beautiful.

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