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Messages - Vigilance

1 ... 7 [8] 9 ... 23
106
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 23, 2014, 05:30:23 AM »
So it would follow that our world is the result of our spirits. If the modern world is soulless and blighted that should inform us about the spirits of those who shape and impact it. When spirits are broken by modern life, a cycle has begun.

Indeed. It's surprising that the Enlightenment dream is still as strong as it is amidst the bleak civilization it left.

107
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 23, 2014, 05:27:11 AM »
Granted, but are the items listed valuable to you?

108
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 23, 2014, 04:50:26 AM »
To be clear:

Is there value in individual liberties such as property rights, right to bear arms, protection from unreasonable search and seizure?

109
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 23, 2014, 04:36:25 AM »
The value of empiricism is that it was no longer enough to simply shore up an argument or a position that met the rules of logic, you had to demonstrate it. It had to be proven against reality as it can be repeatedly ddemonstrated to other observers.

Yep Nihilism in action. Some people even think empirical discoveries in quantum physics have challenged certain rules of logic, but I couldn't elaborate on this.

The limitations are obvious. Empiricism is not applicable to metaphysics which is "the stuff beyond physics." Empiricism is time sensitive. Pure positivism could be used to reject truths which are true but lack in evidence buried over time, burned, destroyed.

What is the alternative you are vaguely gesturing at? What is this alternative 'stuff', this knowledge which is not 'time sensitive', eternal? Mathematics? Sure. Logic? Sure. What else? Come! Let us have it.

With all respect, your whole post was pointing out limitations in empiricism without offering a positive view of the alternative. (I think I know why...).

I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by alternatives?

That's what I was asking you! Did you indicate that empirical knowledge is limited in its scope, in some sense. If so, what is the other knowledge being left out?

Yes and only because I believe in using different tools for their required tasks. Empiricism happens to be useful, but it is over used and the results are something like using a forklift to mince garlic.

110
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 23, 2014, 04:30:05 AM »
I agree that a lot of modern conservatism is either just free-market leftism or romanticizing the past, but in the end conservatism is about the preservation of values (and value).

To say one is on the right in a pure sense would prevent conservatism from making sure we hold onto the best stuff. For example is it possible that there is value in liberal institutions promoting liberty and therefore are worth conserving? Just a thought.

Ultimately, this dichotomy does not really exist because Leftism is not really about anything. It is just against.

This is nonsense.

111
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 21, 2014, 07:47:52 PM »
I don't know how things are up der in Canadia-eh? But here in Americs, the psuedo-conservative old guys are heavily emotionally invested in a recollection of their past that is a bit too rosy to be accurate.

Not that I disagree with you in sentiment or in essence. I'm really looking at the right-pseudo conservatism that manifests itself, actually and prominently as opposed to the Amerika.org-almost-Burkean conservatism.

112
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 21, 2014, 07:20:19 PM »
In my mind, it makes little sense to call something conservative when it's goal is conserving a fantasy.

Instead I should think it'd be about conserving a foundational set of values and the institutions which have been proven to actualize them. This keeps conservatism realistic and adaptive. Free entirely from Utopian delusions.

113
Interzone / Re: The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 21, 2014, 07:15:03 PM »
I don't agree. With regards to social standards it might be more accurate to say the left wants innovation through the dissolution of "old" standards.

114
Interzone / The way things never were - The way things will never be
« on: February 21, 2014, 06:51:34 PM »
Seems like a fairly accurate description for the Left/Right divide.

Each has an imagined Golden Age it looks to impose using the expanding arm of centralized government.

The right believes in a Golden Age somewhere in the past that existed before it was trashed by the left.

The left believes a Golden Age is before us, if only those darn right wingers would get the hell outta the way.

What's interesting to me is the intersection that allows them to sing the same tune, but with different lyrics. Both want utopia and that's why they are able to, despite bitter disagreement, coalesce on the same broad path while mud slinging over peripheral issues.

115
Metal / Re: Imposition - Memento Mori (DM.org user composition)
« on: February 21, 2014, 04:39:45 PM »
Ask the guys from Chth'ilist what they did. I saw their demo posted here by a member and I swear within a matter of months they were being mentioned and reviewed all over the place.

Other than that. You might want to see about starting a correspondence with more prominent members of metal. I don't mean go out and write John Gelso, well maybe you can. With the hordes of upstarts out there, you're going to have to make some friends to actually make it. Worked for a buddy of mine to some degree, if only he'd get his shit together and write more songs. A session was offered to him by a very prominent musician.

116
Interzone / Re: The way things are - The way things ought to be
« on: February 21, 2014, 04:32:23 PM »
I probably could have avoided a lot of headache if I had clarified something early on.

Humanity, on its own, cannot access Absolute Truth.

The religious experience, such that the term can be categorically applied and uses to describe experiences of the named historical figures, crow and myself truth be told, allows such access to happen.

I do believe it's important to distinguish here and not just out of semantics. The religious experience despite variations through time, people and place, IS a very large and very real aspect of human life. Regardless, it is well beyond the ddimensions of ordinary life. The experiences vary, from an experience of the whole system (taoism), to the voice of God and the Angels, to contact with the Dream time (Aboriginal Australia) and even the Rhythms and dances of Shiva in all things (a bit closer to Taoism than the others).

My last word on the topic:
What is important and the only thing actually worth discussing are the values that are shared. It can be accepted that they are not universal, objective and absolute while still holding them in high regard. I believe Westerners are really, really bad at this. It is as if they cannot have self affirmation without absolutist belief. Contrasted with Vedic traditions that believe all are expressions of the divine. The flip side is, that's part of what makes the West uunique in a way.

117
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 21, 2014, 03:53:22 PM »
Crow,

Astute observation. I might add a nugget of interest: rationalism follows a rise in literacy rates. I don't know the tipping point, but as language fluency rises so do formal rationalist schools like Logic or Empiricism, mathematics, the sciences, you name it.

Wild,

Your case is accurate, but I don't and won't follow with the rhetoric that it is deliberate degeneration. Humanists truly believe they are making moral progress towards utopia.

My point was that Christianity arose during a hot bed of religious sensibilities; none of which were divorced from their metaphysical sympatheties.

There was something rotten about the earth and the human condition that needed to be transcended and the deliverance was in heaven. We can see how later on, that fundamental view leads humanists to believe mankind needs to be remade, morally, and heaven ought to be on earth-in a sense.

Christianity really stressed the private life of individuals to such a degree that it shattered classical law which had no conception of the private individual. Jesus told his disciplines to work out their own sin and salvation in private. Later humanistic moralists like to point out the inconsistency between that and the institutional persecution of homosexuality. Humanists use the common trope that whatever one does in the privacy of their home without hurting anyone should be allowed.

Shit I'm ranting. Anyway I'm trying to connect the dots here without writing a book. It feels like We'd have to dig further into the past to look at the landscape before Christianity, and see if some proto humanism existed.

By stroke of luck, it could have been any one of the religious sensibilities of that time, Rome happened to pick up Christianity for reasons that are less than important to the topic.

118
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 21, 2014, 03:12:53 AM »
The value of empiricism is that it was no longer enough to simply shore up an argument or a position that met the rules of logic, you had to demonstrate it. It had to be proven against reality as it can be repeatedly ddemonstrated to other observers.

Yep Nihilism in action. Some people even think empirical discoveries in quantum physics have challenged certain rules of logic, but I couldn't elaborate on this.

The limitations are obvious. Empiricism is not applicable to metaphysics which is "the stuff beyond physics." Empiricism is time sensitive. Pure positivism could be used to reject truths which are true but lack in evidence buried over time, burned, destroyed.

What is the alternative you are vaguely gesturing at? What is this alternative 'stuff', this knowledge which is not 'time sensitive', eternal? Mathematics? Sure. Logic? Sure. What else? Come! Let us have it.

With all respect, your whole post was pointing out limitations in empiricism without offering a positive view of the alternative. (I think I know why...).

I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by alternatives?

119
Interzone / Re: Atheism
« on: February 20, 2014, 10:22:35 PM »
Wild,

I think that it is fruitless to divorce Humanism from Christianity in the history of ideas. I know there is a tendency to flatten out human culture and human ethics across the board by people looking for perennial truths. One such example is the notion, by humanists nonetheless, that all ethical systems converge on compassion. Not true by any means.

Christianity emerged saying many of the same things as other religions of that time period. It just happened to catch on by a stroke of luck. I don't know of any record of nonreligious ethical systems being popular in those days such that it would make your case.

Meta-historically, a strictly rationalist ethical system wouldn't have survived in that phase of European history.

Lost Wanderer,

It certainly appears that way if we mentally substitute consciousness for the verb, I think.

Crow,

Indeed.

120
Interzone / Re: My dick.
« on: February 20, 2014, 06:01:46 PM »
No need to be cocky.

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