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Messages - Jim Necroslaughter
A better question is, why indoctrinate people at all in something that isn't true?
RedReign the humanist, looking out for people. We wouldn't want to lie to people, would we. You critique religion like Bill Maher.
to stay true to the original post, the basis of this discussion would have to be about the everyman's religion, in the mainstream world; the "opiate of the masses."
you're right. one thing I noticed, and I'm pretty sure Nietzsche mentions something along these same lines, is that in the New Testament (which I would consider the everyman religion in today's America), God, THE FATHER, is hardly even there. It's all about Jesus, the son. I'm not sure where to go from here, but basically, that always struck me as odd and, personally, unsettling. I was a huge fan of the Greek myths as a very young kid (and still am), and maybe that's the explanation, but I always associated more strongly with God IN THE SKY. It kind of degrades God to have to become a human.
let's not forget that in america, kids in public school are taught that creationism is a scientific theory of equal value to evolution, or that people will believe that a political candidate is the Antichrist, or that some support our military backing of Israel in anticipation of the Apocalypse, or that some parents will deny their children necessary medical procedures to stay in line with their religious beliefs. you can have your symbols and your metaphysics, but this is the american religion i'm familiar with.
Is this REALLY the norm, though? despite what it might look like from what I said in this thread, I am an anti-christian, I don't believe, literally, in God, I don't believe in Heaven, I don't believe in sin, so I'm not trying to defend Christianity, here, but in Wisconsin/Upper Midwest this just doesn't seem like the norm, to me. not even close, in fact - we laugh at shit like that. I'm not denying it's out there, and whether it's the norm or not, it's STILL a problem, I agree with you there, but I don't think this is the religion of the everyman.
If the fear of God no longer holds us back, what will?
A MAJOR catastrophe? Preferably not a natural disaster - that way we can definitively "blame ourselves." Or a combo natural disaster and "man made disaster." After the disaster we need some "vehicle" to transmit the lessons learned - stories, myths, art, culture, philosophy.
Maybe that's not the best WAY, but basically, the world needs to be mysterious and terrifying, again, on some level.
you are cherry-picking and straw-maning me left and right. you only needed Ted Haggard to make your point. spinning one's wheels has nothing to do with true/false. health is the goal, remember? not truth. I don't care HOW you get to health, just get there. being "irrational" has its place and is actually important to health. if a person was devoid of emotion, they wouldn't be PERFECTLY RATIONAL, they would be PATHOLOGICALLY INDECISIVE - wheelspinning. I'm not defending relgion, rather, I'm attacking science, truth, evidence, and being rational. Here is what I value: the immune system, resisting gravity, forgetting.
Quote from: IstarosReligion's here to stay, folks. You don't have to like it, but it's not going away.
Actually, amazingly, this is not the case. Fewer young people-- drastically fewer-- call themselves religious or spiritual than ever before.
to their detriment, certainly. let's see where those young people are 5 to 10 years from now. plenty of them will be born again types, guaranteed, they will overcompensate as usual. the rest will contiue to twist in the wind.
We don't need a why for HOW THE EARTH WAS FORMED, we don't need a why as an EXPLANATION, we need a why that provides us with a goal greater than ourslelves - why should we get up everyday? why should we work hard? why should we strive for stong MORAL character? We need a why because we need a DIRECTION, we need something to aim FOR. Otherwise we are spinning our wheels. Religion may or may not provide a why depending on the individual, I know that science certainly can't. If you value greatness and genius, then life needs to be more than just survival. Yep, we need a "lie" of sorts. That's what I'm saying. I'm not even going to try to bullshit you. WE NEED A LIE. "The lie is a condition of life." - Nietzsche.Quote from: Jim NecroslaughterScience only shows us HOW, not WHY. Maybe there are some tough guys out there who claim they don't need a WHY, but I guarantee that long-term, big picture, for humanity, in general, WE NEED A "WHY."
You mean you need a made-up fairy tale for how the earth formed. Religion doesn't actually provide a why. It provides a social control agenda cloaked in childish fables.
Looks to me like there isn't a why. If that's the case, what you need is a lie.
Religion's here to stay, folks. You don't have to like it, but it's not going away. It's nice to know facts about the world, for which science is great, but facts without context are meaningless. Knowing the difference in the distances to the sun at the apogee and perigee of the earth's orbit doesn't provide the bearer of that knowledge with a purpose to use that knowledge towards. The universe is meaningless - religion is a method of imbuing it with a meaning.
That's right. Science only shows us HOW, not WHY. Maybe there are some tough guys out there who claim they don't need a WHY, but I guarantee that long-term, big picture, for humanity, in general, WE NEED A "WHY." It doesn't necessarily have to be "religious" in nature or imply the existence of a God, but we need a WHY, and science can't give it to us. As Nietzsche said, if we have our WHY, we will take almost any HOW.
A model of the world approaching truth is perhaps the single most defining characteristic of mental health. When you start believing religious bullshit on the basis of zero evidence, you're no different from people in insane asylums who believe that they're Napoleon.
Or who believe that god talks to them.
I think that one of the most underrated mechanisms of the mind is the ability to forget. Showing that you understand a model of the world approaching truth is one way to PROVE that you ARE mentally healthy - but it, alone (or perhaps at all), doesn't necessarily GET YOU TO health. What gets you to health is catharsis - this goes for the body and the mind. A healthy person quickly forgets who has wronged him or how we was wronged, he quickly does away with inimical feelings, THAT is how you GET to mental health. This explains why we dream at night. If we remembered EVERYTHING that ever happened to us as vividly as if it happened yesterday, we would be a mess. I think mental health is more RELIANT on your emotions and you ability to deal with them than anything else.
But I digress. I agree with you that truth and health are not necessarily opposed to each other. However, you acknowledge that the ability to understand or acknowledge truth is a CHARACTERISTIC of mental health. You say it's the MOST DEFINING characteristic, I would reserve that for: "the ability to forget." But either way, you essentially acknowledge that HEALTH > TRUTH, correct? Nietzsche said that the lie is a condition of life. I don't necessarily believe in a God or "religious bullshit," but I just don't hold science, truth, and evidence in such high regard either, and yet, I realize I'm not Napoleon. Octuple mentioned intuition, and I would that say I operate on more of an intuitive, instinctual, and aesthetic level than anything else. I'm just trying to explain the angle some of us are coming from.
« on: July 29, 2009, 12:55:39 AM »
It seems to me that "freedom" is a one-way street for the individual to demand the ability to be deconstructive, or do whatever they want regardless of the cost to others, but it does not allow groups to make standards, set up culture, etc.
"Freedom" is inherently against culture and shared values.
Then again, culture and shared values are the only forces that can compete with authoritarian governments or large companies and keep them away.
Could it be "freedom" itself IS our slavery? Or rather, that it creates the disorder that enslaves us? It seems the freest societies leave behind large herds of obese brat-sheep.
I'm with you 100%.
I wish I had more time, lately, to keep up with all the threads on the board and offer more thoughts, but I just wanted to check in and say: thought-provoking and inspiring post.
DON QUIXOTE is an absolute MUST, if you ask me. Utterly charming and inspiring; totally "aristocratic." No novel is more essential if you plan to read fiction throughout your life. King Lear and DQ are my favorite pieces of fiction EVER.
And if you decide to read it, don't flake out and only read book 1!
And if you decide to read it, don't flake out and only read book 1!
Look, the fact is, if you are going to include lyrics, they need to be good. A lot of people here are using that argument that rock bands make that "it's just how it sounds" or "it's just the way the lyrics make you feel, rather than what they mean". This is just a justification for albums that have bad lyrics.
you're right. I plead guilty. don't get me wrong - I would love to see higher standards for lyrics in metal.
Hell yeah! I mean, why not? Will improved/better lyrics "save" metal? No. But why not work on improving all aspects? As an artist, it can be beneficial to take a break from the "meat" of your work and go off on a tangent, even as an "exercise." The tangent may open up new potentials and inspire you. A good idea, is a good idea, explore it to the end, even if it takes you away from the heart of the matter for a brief time, if it comes up fruitless, so be it. Everyone works differently, but I think what Conservationist proposes is a good ideaAre they important and if so, why?
Increasingly, I like the Greek idea of entwining music, lyrics and theatre.
There should be a story to every song.
The mode should sound like the emotions and find a way to mix those emotions in the right percentages at the right time; the rhythms should feel like the gut reaction at each stage.
The lyrics should tell the story from the point of view of a character, or an anonymous observer, but never cross over the two.
The stage should be set, and the creatures should act out any drama but that of being musicians playing the song.
I don't know that it would be the same for anyone else, but I've found that depressive tendencies dissipate once one stops focusing one's thoughts on oneself.
I absolutely agree. Although I've never really gone through a long-term "bout" of depression, I have always, since a young age, found great strength and comfort in acknowledging that I, and humans in general, are, in a broad sense, insignificant. It's funny, because a more literal-minded person would say, "oh, you think you're insignificant? you must have low self-esteem." But I've always found the opposite to be true.