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Messages - death metal black metal

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Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 29, 2004, 12:19:14 AM »
That was clear from the very begining.Now knowing your main emphasis I would like to turn the discussion into slightly different direction.What is the "historical fairness" in the case with what is known as "Thrash Metal" ? And why do you concider it to be so ?
According to you media-coinde terms are incorrect, what will your comments be on the media-coined terms as "Heavy Metal" or as Annihilaytor suggested "N.W.O.B.H.M.".
I think you are trying to be too smart, if to use a
colloquial style "smart-ass".

If it was clear from the beginning, why has it taken you so long to understand it?

"Heavy metal" and "NWOBHM" do not replace legitimate terms with media coinage, and are reasonably descriptive, and had a precedent before the media.

"Thrash metal" did not.

Best of luck with your "debate" - I think I've now repeated myself enough.

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 28, 2004, 08:13:52 PM »
So If you didn't mean to show your disaproval of this term and to show your attitude to media-coined terms, then would you be so kind as to decript your post.

You're calling an apple an orange because some magazines said so. It makes more sense to stick with the historical name for apples, "apple."

Sorry if it sounds condescending, but I can't imagine simplifying what I already posted any further.

Metal / How to have a hit #1 single
« on: November 28, 2004, 07:33:27 PM »
Firstly, it has to have a dance groove that will run all the way through the record and that the current 7" buying generation will find irresistible. Secondly, it must be no longer than three minutes and thirty seconds (just under 3'20 is preferable). If they are any longer Radio One daytime DJs will start fading early or talking over the end, when the chorus is finally being hammered home - the most important
part of any record. Thirdly, it must consist of an intro, a verse, a chorus, second verse, a second chorus, a breakdown section, back into
a double length chorus and outro.


Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 28, 2004, 06:13:53 PM »
So you claim that "Thrash" is invalid term because of it being a mix of some other, basic genres ?

I assume the problem is you don't want to accept the terms coined by media.

I think you have misread what I wrote above. You are wrong on both counts.

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 28, 2004, 04:58:46 PM »
Exactly. Where the logic problem comes in is that SRP accepts Black Metal by its later definition and does not define it by the same time period he defines Thrash in with.  

Of course he doesn't - you define movements by their maturation, not the coinage of a term.

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 28, 2004, 04:57:56 PM »
If you do not accept the validity of the term "Thrash" you will end up with having alot of bands that can't be classified as any existing genre.

From my perspective, you are the one denying the validity of the term "thrash" by trying to apply it to an already-categorized metal genre.

It is a crossover genre, and nothing like it exists; it isn't hardcore and it isn't metalcore and it isn't grindcore, but its own entity.

The term "thrash" for speed metal (or heavy metal or hybrid speed/death like Kreator and Destruction) was invented by heavy metal magazines for the purpose of selling albums.

Pick your loyalty: historical accuracy, or $$$

Metal / Re: Heidenlarm (and thoughts on a new e-zine)
« on: November 27, 2004, 06:07:59 PM »
Centralization of discussion on Heidenlarm issues:


Main question: what should a post-Heidenlarm zine be like?

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 26, 2004, 04:13:23 AM »
Wikipedia is not a serious resource, sorry. See the GNAA page debacle for proof of that.

I will end this debate with a single question: what did the verb to thrash originally mean?

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 25, 2004, 09:13:49 PM »
How could bands like COC and DRI who were late comers in the 80s movement, and influenced by pre-existing thrash bands, who were originally playing hardcore(not thrash at first, that came later) after the term thrash was being used to describe bands like Overkill and Slayer, be the only ones called thrash...

 All those are good examples thrash/crossover. As in Hardcore that was crossing over into thrash, a genre of metal that already existed. Most of those bands didn't even get started till the 83 and 84(by then Overkill, Metallica, Exodus, Slayer, Metal Church, Bathory, etc had albums or demos out), and most had a purely hardcore era before listening to Metallica, Exodus and Slayer and the rest and thinking "ya know, musically this stuff is related to what we play anyway, and has more balls then pure hardcore, lets fucking THRASH IT OUT"  

Very simply: your facts are wrong.

DRIs first works were 1982, and COC was of similar vintage. This was all inspired by Discharge in the same year, which is why 1983-1985 was such a potent time: hardcore finally produced something which fused easily with metal.

Back then, punk wasn't as metal as it is now, so to punk ears DRI sounded like metal :)

Further, "thrash" as a term was used before the music came around, to describe the culture from which this music originated. (You can find lyrical hints to that culture on the first DRI album.)

At the time, most people who were the types to later get into underground metal REFUSED to refer to speed metal as thrash for that reason. The magazines got ahold of it, and thus Metallica et al became called "thrash." Eventually, this morphed into "thrash metal" for the keyword happy.

However, originally thrash and speed metal were quite different, often antagonistic, genres.

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 25, 2004, 08:06:14 PM »
Speed metal was like NWOBHM pioneers just played faster without a whole lot of direct punk influence on the riffs(chugging palm mutes usually lacking- see Agent Steel for a good example) Thrash/crossover was mostly punk/hardcore with minor metal elements(DRI are a good example)

Speed metal was usually defined by the muted riffing. The other stuff I refer to as "power metal," but in the day was simply called heavy metal.

DRI, COC, Cryptic Slaughter, Dead Horse and Fearless Iranians From Hell are good examples of Thrash bands.

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 25, 2004, 12:38:32 AM »
Arguing that thrash never really existed all of a sudden on technical grounds is kind of silly

Thrash metal never existed.

Thrash existed.

Death and black metal were terms not in common use except among the few, but were standardized enough to make it into Spin in 1991-1992 (?).

This isn't an anal-retentiveness issue for me as much as a historically correct one: to give the term "thrash" to speed metal is to slight another genre.

It's like calling Metallica "black metal."

Metal / Re: Thrash metal
« on: November 24, 2004, 01:39:07 AM »
How it happened was shockingly simple, actually: magazines, labels and radio DJs discovered that "thrash" was a more saleable term than "speed metal."

But what one poster said above is true about the divergence: thrash wasn't really metal music, but it borrowed a lot from metal - as did almost every later hardcore band. It was crossover, and it came about after HC died. Then the metal bands did the crossover thing, and took a lot of thrash - the speed, the punk breaks (see Overkill for examples), the voices - and turned it into metal music.

Kind of like the difference between an Italian and an Arab. An Arab is a Semite with some Caucasian blood (thrash); an Italian is a Caucasian with some Arab blood (speed metal).

Metal / Thrash metal
« on: November 23, 2004, 10:26:59 PM »
In my view, and historically speaking, this is a nonsense term.

Thrash music = metal/HC crossover.

Speed metal = Metallica, Destruction, Megadeth, Exodus

They are radically different genres, and both embrace leftism with the lock-step of post-hardcore punk bands.

Metal / Metal master's thesis
« on: November 20, 2004, 02:11:43 PM »
He ain't just heavy he's a masters student
13 November 2004

As Dave Snell sits on an old wooden bench, dressed in a black Marilyn Manson T-shirt, slightly unshaved and wearing dark glasses, he assures us he is not a violent thug or a weird loner.

He looks the part of a heavy metal music listener though and indeed he is.

But, the 24-year-old is also a Waikato University masters student researching why people listen to heavy metal and trying to change the perception society has of him and his peers.

"A lot of us have got into the scene (heavy metal) as a reaction to something that has happened in our lives. They may be having trouble at home or fighting oppression. It really helped me when I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease when I was 15. It was a way of venting my frustration," he said.

The Metallica fan said heavy metal also enabled people to make friendships and develop a sense of community around the music.

"It really bugs me that it comes under such criticism. Others think that people who listen to heavy metal are uneducated or bums. From my own experience people within the scene place a great deal of value on being part of that (heavy metal) group."

Dave, who would like to study for a postgraduate diploma in community psychology, has had different reactions from people about his research.

"People in the heavy metal scene are ecstatic about it, and people in the psychology department at the university are really supportive. Others outside of the university think it's a bit of a joke or look down their nose at it."

"We're stereotyped as being angry and violent, but it's just the way people interpret the lyrics. People tend to take very literal translations but you have to know about the band and when the song was written. Context plays a big part. But the more people know about the scene and understand it, the better," he said.

He hoped to complete his thesis on heavy metal next year.


Metal / Re: Immolation - Harnessing Ruin
« on: November 14, 2004, 03:52:44 PM »

Long-running New York-based death metallers IMMOLATION have set Harnessing Ruin as the title of their new album, tentatively due late March 2005. The album was recorded at Millbrook Sound Studios with Paul Orofino producing. A new video for the track "Dead to Me" is currently in the works. The band will also be performing at next year's Maryland Death Fest.

Harnessing Ruin track listing:
01. Swarm of Terror
02. Our Savior Sleeps
03. Challenge the Storm
04. Harnessing Ruin
05. Dead to Me
06. Son of Iniquity
07. My Own Enemy
08. Crown the Liar
09. At Mourning's Twilight

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