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Messages - detrath

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Interzone / Re: other metal sites
« on: February 02, 2008, 07:56:05 AM »

More people talking = more objectivity


Fuck, no!

I think you've misread Moses' intentions with what he said. If we move from 900 people talking to 901 (to mirror the modern picture), we are not going to gain objectivity and may even lose it. There are simply too many voices and opinions and for any individual trying to take it all in, they will likely want to throw their hands up and give up on whatever the issue at stake was. However, if we are in a more sane situation comparing a single voice (the ANUS voice that is often the only source for many people) with a second voice, this has great benefit. The first voice's ideas are still implanted in us, but now they seem to take on a more lively flair when compared with another voice that is often saying the same or similar things but also different things. Both the similarities and differences stand out more and make a stronger impression on the mind, thus increasing their potential to influence the way reality is considered and thus the way action will be performed. The ideas feel more real and are thus being considered more and more as objective for the individual studying them in this sense.

Moses second point amplifies the first point. The reviews of the DLA are not to be taken dogmatically, for this would not allow for a full appreciation of them. Even if these other reviews are seen as lacking for whatever reason, the things that they lack and that the DLA has will be magnified for someone performing the comparison. A stronger impression on the reader can only be seen as good, I think...

Interzone / Re: other metal sites
« on: February 01, 2008, 10:05:02 PM »
It's definitely not an offshoot - they have positive Opeth reviews. They seem less severe than this site in terms of weeding out diamonds from the coal. It still has that feeling of youth, of branching out and discovering what's what instead of already knowing what is what. They would be found open-minded to a fault by some of our members, I suspect, but I think I agree with you - it's nice to see people taking metal seriously in this way, including taking an interest in philosophy and in transcending the banality of modern life.

That other big question you raised still looms large, though - is it simply a ripoff of the ANUS style fashioned to their own liking?

Edit: Upon reading further some of the articles and reviews, the writer(s) of this site seem very sensitive to music as art in a genuine and insightful way. There is alot of good work that has been done on this site and I don't think it should be absolutely disregarded due to the possible prejudices that arise because of its appearance and tone.

Interzone / Re: Meshuggah - ObZen
« on: January 25, 2008, 09:16:59 AM »
What of Catch 33? The lyrical themes of overcoming the ego I thought might be of some interest to our community given the interest in zen and related philosophies. The riffs are well crafted but yes, it does have the fault of maintaining more or less one aesthetic mood throughout the whole album.

Interzone / Re: Is democracy really the problem?
« on: January 18, 2008, 08:20:01 PM »

I get the whole building anew deal, but why tear down one false conception just to create another? That smacks of desperation.

Let's again be productive. Abraxas, let us presuppose the spirit of society was again healthy, now what system would you put in place to rule? If I understand your position correctly, wouldn't democracy be a better fit here, as it would be exponentially harder to corrupt the spirits of the many than to corrupt the spirits of the few? I am not convinced that democracy in itself will always meet with failure.

I know that one possible response to what you have said would go as follows:

Suppose everyone is at some kind of awakened spiritual state in which they are not swept up by false pictures of reality and see things more or less clearly, like our ideal nihilist. Democracy may not be the best form of government that would follow from this. One part of reality that they should also now be able to see more clearly will be their selves, and they will begin to have a clearer picture of what they can and want to do with themselves. They would feel best and most comfortable doing what they can do best. For some people, their inner voice will be a voice to lead. There are some people that are simply natural leaders. We see them in history and they are described and praised as such. These people need to be in charge, and presumably if they are at least on the road to having a clearer picture of reality and how things really are, they will be effective leaders also. The main point in this line of thought would be that some people simply make effective leaders through some chance of composition in them. It's simply how things are and we shouldn't dance around this gift of human composition. In a very small community, one such person could lead. In a larger nation, a council of such people would be ideal. If the nation has complex industries, there can be experts of industry around to inform the council of facts, etc. The ideal in this picture would be that the best leaders lead and everyone else does what they're best at, staying out of leadership issues.

Also just realized I should add this: Corruption will be a problem for any system. The prevention of it should not be the principle aim. Effective leadership should be the principle aim, brought about by bringing out the natural leadership tendencies in those born for it. Aim for the best leadership! If this is the goal, it will be natural to try to fend off corruption.

Interzone / Re: Is democracy really the problem?
« on: January 18, 2008, 02:42:51 PM »

I think the whole point of this website is that no method is gonna stop what's a failure of spirit.

We need to fix the spirit, and exclude the parasites.

I fully agree that this is the proper solution, the treatment of the disease and not its symptoms.

There is a great worry, however. This is a thread about politics, and so, politically, where would it leave us if success is made on the spiritual front? We can imagine a situation in which more and more people have refined their spirits and outlooks, but the existing political power structure is antithetical to the involvement of these people. I've mentioned this before, but it is the only conclusion that comes before my eyes: politically, is this not a case of having to ride the tiger? We ensure we are not devoured by the spiritual plague that accompanies a lazy, dying civilization, but what more can we do? Forging change in these higher levels of government being discussed truly seems out of reach to me. When things get much worse, the people of Spirit will be the natural leaders and people will gravitate to them.

Edit: Just as an addition, I wanted to also put out there that smaller local governments could exist, but anything like an overthrow of the central government is a pipe dream.

Metal / Re: Cyclic
« on: January 11, 2008, 08:27:34 AM »
Weeman: Isn't that a fault of the artist and not the cyclic structure? Sure, if you cycle the same musical structure over and over again, it's a waste. That does not seem like an error fundamental to using a cyclic structure, however. It seems to speak more about the artist's inability/unwillingness to break out of a certain mold and explore his territory further.

A cycle does not have to be repeated ad nauseum. It can simply be, as Moses observed about the Asphyx album, the process of starting somewhere, going off on a journey, and returning to that beginning, which is implicitly the beginning of another journey, but that is where the album ends. This is an effective use of a cycle. If the cycle is RICH enough, you don't need to repeat some weaker narrow cycle of riffs, musical structure, or ideas. I thought this was the distinction implicit in Moses' worries... The cyclic form of much of reality and nature is rich, beautiful and flows naturally, as an album that hopes to imitate cyclic form should also do.

I worry that the way you have phrased things makes it sound like the cyclic form is doomed to failure, especially in the summary at the end of your post. The cyclic form is not at fault; the weak, repetitive use of it is what is at fault. The cyclic form does not have some inherent problem; it does not have to be a predictable motion used over and over to fulfill the need of having motion. It would be more accurate to say that the cyclic form tends to fail IN PRACTICE because of the limited scope of ideas of the artists utilizing it. A grand cycle could be the backbone of a grand album!

Metal / Re: Cyclic
« on: January 10, 2008, 08:53:55 AM »
You make a good point. Some distinction should be drawn between the two uses of cyclic. I think, however, that there really are two uses and that rock music is still properly cyclic and not merely repetitive. It doesn't repeat the same identical details over and over, but rather, seems to run through a small closed circuit of ideas over and over. Metal, with a spirit of fearlessness and adventure, often goes on much greater journeys through the realm of ideal.

We might be tempted to instead use "repetitive" to describe rock music. However, simply using "repetitive" isn't enough to capture the short circuit of ideas that rock music tends to engage with, just as cyclic was not sufficient. We are all familiar with the musical use of repetition in metal to induce trance or dream-like states. Also, the same or similar circuit of ideas might be followed on different metal songs or albums, just as the same narrow circuits are followed on rock songs or albums, so the charge of being repetitive in this sense, of taking similar journeys across songs or albums, could be leveled against both genres. The critical difference is a qualitative one. I think the critical features are not being cyclic or repetitive, but rather, the opposition between the narrow cycles of rock vs the broad cycles of metal.

For these reasons, which I think are also in tune with the original poster's observations, perhaps we could introduce two terms of art to capture the narrow/broad scope in the two genres: rock music is narrowly cyclic, while metal tends to be broadly cyclic. I think this helps to reveal the redundance of rock in being so narrow in its focus, too. We could also somewhere perhaps talk about the kinds of things that rock tends to repeat within its narrow cycles, but the fact alone that it is so narrow is I think sufficient for at least one criticism of it.

Perhaps there is a better way to word this, but this is what came to mind upon reading your post. You make good observations! I hope my analysis didn't feel too tedious. My mind is prone to parsing things out like this...

Interzone / Re: Diamond Darrel
« on: December 09, 2007, 02:23:58 PM »
I witnessed first hand the fact that Anselmo has awareness of the heart of underground metal. I went to a concert many years ago with a few friends, the bill being Danzig, Superjoint Ritual, Opeth, Nile, and Behemoth, with Nile being the highlight putting on a very solid performance while the other bands were plagued with assorted issues. I remember very clearly Anselmo ranting and raving during the Superjoint set about trying to bring back old hardcore and old black metal and the underground spirit. My memory is hazy about his particulars, but I believe he mentioned by name bands like Mayhem and Darkthrone. Of course, he was clearly on some kind of substance and halfway to being entirely incoherent, and his rant was phrased in terms of him and his efforts to play real old hardcore with Superjoint. The situation you described was on full display.

I think there was something profound in seeing so clearly the heart of why so many bands, even bands with underground metal and classic metal sensibilities, fail to produce that which they are striving for. They think they will produce music just like the old classics and that therefore it will be classic, thus saving the genre, but of course that isn't what matters at all, as we on these forums read all the time. In spite of their aims, the reality of the situation is their production of an ego-driven imitation. The savior complex is dangerous.

Interzone / Re: "US shoppers killed in gun rampage "
« on: December 05, 2007, 08:47:33 PM »
I think I feel it needed to in the sense that it was inevitable, that conditions are such that this kind of behavior is being unwittingly nurtured. I don't think we've ever had killings quite like these ones occurring before the modern era (correct me if I'm wrong I suppose). There is some kind of special disconnect at work that is being amplified and relied upon by these kinds of shooters. He says he's sorry for being a burden but that now he's going to be famous. What kind of world is he living in in his mind? Everything is so dramatically overstated in that typical depressed teenager fashion. These shooters are like amplified versions of the everyday angsty teen, so that is what makes me wonder: what is this powerful disconnect at work in our youth? It reaches a violent conclusion when pushed to the limit by unstable individuals, but there seem to be conditions that allow it to exist in the first place so long as it's benign and the kids don't act on it and shoot up their schools or malls.

Interzone / Re: "US shoppers killed in gun rampage "
« on: December 05, 2007, 08:00:13 PM »
Such is the risk of shooting at random. He is no hero for what he did, but he is interesting to observe as part of a symptom of something going terribly wrong in this society as these events seem to happen more commonly.

There are aspects of the reality of society that push most people to a disinterested detachment, but others to a crazed detachment in which they will destroy the symbols of everything they now perceive to be wrong with society. Seeing these varying flight-from-reality responses happen in real life and understanding them is valuable, if nothing else to help us stay grounded and healthy in our ideals in the face of decay in the real world and detached ideals in our society.

Interzone / Re: Suicide
« on: November 21, 2007, 07:40:20 AM »
Concerning AtTheGates1996:

An attempt at a summary for you to perhaps aid understanding:

It sounds to me, given you mentioned that you haven't read the anus material or philosophy or any of that, that you've developed a certain picture of what anus is about. I can only presume it's been informed by the postings you've read on these metal forums and perhaps by the various bits of propaganda produced by the staff.

I think that the propaganda and some of the posts shouldn't be taken in any kind of absolute or even literal manner. There's usually alot of sarcasm in the posts, for example. Maybe it really is Born For Banning's position, but an arbitrary standard like "kill everyone below IQ120" is (hopefully) obviously foolish. Rather, what I get out of the post is that it is showing that we do not value intelligence, that people of low intelligence often don't realize they're stupid, and that maybe if they did realize it, they wouldn't go beyond their means and might try to do the best with what they've got, or something like that.

You then came back and responded in a harsh absolute way. Ex: degrading people because they eat fast food is an insane judgment. This is misunderstanding the point. The goal is not to create a standard of absolute evil upon which if you eat a cheeseburger you're the fucking devil. The fact that someone ate a big mac one time, or even a few times, says very little about them. What might say more is if they are a regular customer. What would say even more is if they're a regular customer and they're overweight. The more qualities and patterns that reveal themselves, the more they begin to paint a picture of what a person values and cares about.

The current day and age is insane in alot of ways in terms of what it values and cares about. We have alot of very easy ways to accomplish alot of things in our lives. There's easy entertainment with television, easy food with fast food, and all the other examples that get thrown around on these boards that you no doubt are aware of. These things come at a price. They show that we are willing to raise up ease at the cost of other things. It is these things that we try to investigate. We want to know what we're losing by leading these modern lives because we are undoubtedly losing something.

The diagnosis often runs like this: We are losing meaning to our existence when we throw off challenge and all that comes with it. We no longer have great health, let alone flourishing. We simply keep society going for the sake of keeping society going with no greater goals or ideals to help us recognize that maybe some things shouldn't be kept around. This situation bothers alot of people and that's why many of us are here.

Interzone / Re: The roots of modern alternative and indie musi
« on: November 15, 2007, 03:08:54 PM »

LLD seems to be taking initiative:


Programmed Cell Death is worth listening to. It's a stab in the right direction, I think...

Edit: hi.arc.tow is interesting ambient music as well. Anyone scanning the thread should take a listen, at the least to prove those involved with ANUS are not do-nothings when it comes to music...

Interzone / Re: Reminder: express self clearly
« on: November 15, 2007, 03:02:28 PM »
They're odd in the sense that you're using a possessive case over a gerund which can sound odd to the ears at first.

Interzone / Re: Hessian Pugilist Compact
« on: November 11, 2007, 12:59:30 PM »
In terms of practical fighting, muay thai, brazilian jiu jitsu, and wrestling/grappling have been proven to be the most effective forms of training to help achieve victory in mixed martial arts competition. The techniques employed work in the streets and in competition.

Hessians might be interested in the spiritual dimensions of martial arts as well though, so there is a price to pay for abstracting away practical technique from the above mentioned disciplines. Krav Maga is also worth looking into...

Interzone / Re: School shooting in Finland
« on: November 11, 2007, 12:51:48 PM »
"Well I said you may or may not agree with his goal.  the point is, unlike the rest of us who just complain on message boards, he took action for what he believed in, meaning his life has more meaning that all those who just stay quiet and do nothing."

Does a person who acts on their beliefs inherently have more meaning to their life than a person who does not do so? A proud capitalist-oriented man who believes only in the value of the dollar will act on that belief to destroy a forest. Does his life have more meaning than someone who is not so destructive (whatever precisely meaning means)? If for a life to have meaning, it means something like "made an impact on reality", then all the selfish destructive acts are just as meaningful as valuable constructive ones. Perhaps this is what you mean by meaning, but if that is the case, it is a poor criteria to judge the value of an action, for it inherently ignores the value of an action, and I think we need to decide what is valuable and not ignore it. Meaning in the sense of impact alone is not going to be enough.

"What's interesting is that once you realize that there are no laws outside man's laws, you realize that there is no need to justify one's own beliefs.  They are your beliefs because you believe in them.  His action is what justifies it, for his action is what set it in stone."

So you're saying my beliefs do not need to be justified in some abstract way because there are no laws that govern what beliefs I will or wont have. I can hold whatever beliefs I want. You emphasize that you mean something like this when you emphasize that the beliefs are possessed, "they are your beliefs because you believe in them". You then seem to believe that a belief is justified if it can be put into action. So a justified belief is one that has been put into action.

This seems to be a path to ignoring reality. Think about beliefs about what action should be taken. If I believe the way to put out a fire is to throw gasoline on it, that belief will be justified as true or corresponding to reality or however you want to talk about it based on the fact that I throw gasoline on the fire. It seems very strange to say this, that that belief was justified because I acted on it. It seems like my belief would be justified if I had a reason for holding it, if it was verified somehow. The contents of what I believed turn out to be false, afterall. The gasoline just makes the fire worse.

So it's true that we can believe whatever we want (in some free or unfree sense of want), and that they are -our- beliefs because we are the ones believing them, but the jump to the belief itself being justified (which is inherently going to have something to do with getting onto reality or truth or something like that) because it was followed through seems a bit crazy. Not all beliefs are equal. Not all beliefs are equally justified, that is, not all beliefs get onto reality equally.

"I don't see anything wrong with what he did.  He didn't know any better to do anything with more results and he wasn't going to sit around and wait to think of something."

I live in the forest and there are wolves about. I need to build a fence to keep them out. There are many sensible paths to building a fence. Unfortunately, I don't know what they are. In fact, I'm entirely ignorant of the fence option. I only know that I hate (and fear) the wolves and the consequences they bring about, so I attack them and am promptly devoured afterward. I wasn't going to sit around and wait to think of something. I wasn't patient enough to think the situation through.

Ignorance and impatient lazy thinking does not make my poor choice of action any less poor, even if I was somehow destined or determined to make that poor choice.

"Maybe we all should have shot up our schools.  Maybe the mass killing would have opened some eyes.  Maybe not though.  I guess we'll all get old now. "

This is only sensible based on your erroneous assumption about the equality of how close to reality all beliefs get.

The answer to inaction is not action for its own sake, action at any price. Action alone should not be so dogmatically pursued.

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