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Messages - fallot

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Interzone / Re: Liberalism = racism
« on: December 18, 2011, 04:43:08 PM »
Can they really if the method is empirical and the research open? I mean, academia may be liberally slanted, but hard data is hard data, you can always disagree with their interpretation of it. Some things are just undeniable.

Interzone / Re: What creeps me out about Christians
« on: December 17, 2011, 05:02:39 PM »
What exactly do you wonder about aquarius? Would they be this way if they believed in a loving God or a God at all? If you ask whether they would uphold these values if they believed in a more holistic, beyond human God; the answer is yes. Since it's anecdotes I've met some ultra-conservative Muslims who are exactly this way. In fact, the vast majority are this way and fundamentally understand the decay of modern society. Hence you see them reject it in their outward appearance, in a distinctive traditional garb, with a certain look that may be ridiculed in modern society; even in their own nations (but people are waking up).

If your question is, would they be this way if they believed in a God at all, the answer is; dunno lol.

Interzone / Re: ✠
« on: December 17, 2011, 11:17:56 AM »
The decision to do what is right stands whether the promise of reward in a hereafter exists or not (or even if a hereafter exists). When you believe, you believe, you don't pay lip service or clamor for eternal life and pleasure. If the Lord of the Universe commands, then as an infinitesmally smaller element you obey, for that is the voice of existence itself. The motivation is absolute purpose.

Interzone / Re: Atheism rules.
« on: December 17, 2011, 07:53:23 AM »
One idea about certain aspects of religion (you can stretch it to a lot of other stuff) has always persisted and appealed to me. The Andalusian philosopher Ibn-Tufail wrote, in the 12th century, a tract about a feral child who is lead into realization by his own faculties alone. It's called Hayy-ibn-Yaqdhan ("Alive, son of Awake", translated in 1708 by Simon Ockley as Philosophus Autodidactus). Anyway, here are some excerpts directly from the translated text, with parts of interest and relevance bolded:

"Only there were two things stuck in his Mind, which he wonder'd at, and could not comprehend wherein the Wisdom of them did consist. The one was, why this Messenger of God, in describing most things which relate to the Divine World, us'd to express them to Men by Parables or Similitudes, and wav'd a perspicuous Explication of them; by which occasion'd Men in a great Measure to fall into that Error of asserting a Corporeity in God, and believing Things of that TRUE Being, from which he is absolutely free; and so in like manner, concerning, those Things which relate to the Rewards and Punishments of a Future State. The other was, why he went no farther than these Precepts and Rites of Worship, but gave Men leave to gather Riches, and allow'd them a Liberty as to matter of Food; by which means they employed themselves about vain Things, and turn'd away from the Truth, Whereas his Judgment was, that no Body ought to eat any thing, but only just to keep him alive; and as for Riches, He had no Opinion of them at all. And when he saw what was set down and prescrib'd in the Law, with Relation to Wealth, as Alms, and the Distribution of them, and Trading and Usury, Mulcts and Punishments; these things seem'd all very odd to him, and he judg'd them superfluous; and said, that if Men understood Things aright, they would lay aside all these vain Things, and follow the Truth, and content themselves without any thing of all this; and that no Man would challenge such a Propriety in Riches, as to have Alms ask'd of him, or to cause his Hands to be cut off, who privily stole them; or their lives to be taken away, who had openly robb'd him.

Now that which prompted him to this Persuasion, was this, that he thought all Men were indu'd with an ingenuous Temper, and penetrating Understanding, and a Mind constant to itself; and was not aware how blockish and stupid they were, how ill-advis'd, and inconstant in their Resolutions; insomuch, that they are like Brute Beasts, nay, more apt to wander out of the way. Since therefore he was greatly affected with Pity towards Mankind, and desir'd that he might be an Instrument of their Salvation; a Resolution came into his Mind of going over to them, to declare and lay before them the Truth. This Intention of his he communicated to his Friend Asāl and ask'd him if there could possibly be any way contriv'd to come at them.

But Asāl told him what sort of People they were, and how far from an ingenuous Temper, and how averse from obeying the Commands of God; but he had no Notion of that, but still his Mind was intent upon that which he hop'd to compass: And Asāl desir'd that it would please God, by his means, to direct some of his Acquaintance which were of a more pliable Temper than the rest, and had more Sincerity in them, into the right way. So then he was ready to further the Design and Endeavour of Hai Ebn Yokdhan. Upon which they resolved to keep close to the Sea Shore, without stirring from it either Day or Night, till God should please to afford them an Opportunity of crossing the Sea. And all the while they were intent upon this, they continu'd praying to God to direct them in this their Business, and bring it to an happy Issue.


The main point I wanted to highlight; "a lot of people are stupid, they need trappings so they can function." A "real" religion must be a crowd pleaser to some extent. It has to be. At the very least, the crowd must be functional and satisfied. A little off-topic? Something to think about?

Interzone / Re: Opinions are seductive
« on: December 17, 2011, 07:14:10 AM »
1) We are naturally in groups; reasons unknown.
2) We form "artificial" groups; the stronger ones survive by convincing or killing.

We're not at the same position as we were say, 4000 years ago though. Nevertheless, we didn't evolve to "find truth", we evolved. For what purpose? None. If you're going to talk of purpose you can stretch it all the way back to the Big Bang; it's all the same universe, no need for distinction. The ingredient missing here seems to be an "objective" anything? In some fields, you can be comfirmably, absolutely correct (mathematics). But if you really want to get down to it, you can't "trust" yourself or anything or w/e since every input is received and interpreted by your senses.

Instead of attempting to answer that, I'll ask; What is the purpose of this question? What would an answer lead to?

(If all groups claim to be right, must they then all be wrong because of that claim?)

Interzone / Re: Sweet leaf
« on: December 16, 2011, 09:59:18 AM »
Anything can be escapism indeed. People who look at the world around them and are disgusted are perhaps at greater risk (especially in youth) of falling prey to such behaviour. However, it is perhaps easy to see one's own little corner of time and think "shit is fucked up and can't be fixed, I'll run away".

The stronger opiates are simply too tempting for the vast majority of people to let go of if they somehow start. They cannot be allowed openly, but harm reduction is wise. There are those that would argue against that on the basis of it being some kind of just Darwinism. That makes no sense to me, it hampers society. These people should not be helped because we feel bad about them, but because helping them (help themselves) benefits their milieu as well. Responsible use is certainly possible, and Heroin may be demonized more than it deserves, but it deserves quite a bit. Medically, they are invaluable. It's the last rung on the analgesic ladder and a great boon. You misrepresent it with your statement though Conservationist: "a forgetting of being alive (you must have great pain to need a great painkiller)". It is an extremely pleasurable experience, but eventually you use it just to be normal; the rest of the time you're rattling because you don't have your fix. That's what being a junkie means, you are punished with physical pain when you don't use it and rewarded with pleasure when you do.

All the people I know who regularly use cannabis are perfectly normal, successful individuals. I hear about kids who got sidetracked into apathy and uselessness, but that's a symptom of an underlying hedonism I think, more than the effect of the drug itself. Continuing the anecdotes; I have encountered people in psychiatric wards where a history of cannabis use is evident (linked to psychoses). I think it's far more credible that it causes latent psychoses to become evident rather than being the direct cause. It definitely causes dependancy, but a mild one, mostly psychological. I don't think it's dangerous enough to warrant being controlled. In terms of being associated with ill, it wins out by an overwhelming majority. Cannabis use is widespread amongst all demographics in Europe.

It's fashionable to label deviants as mentally ill. That way no one really has to be "bad". Everything is a single, unalterable circumstance. You don't throw a grenade in a crowded marketplace unless you're mentally ill? Can you even do anything beyond a certain degree of "horribleness" and still be called sane? This offends the intellect.

Metal / Re: Wulfgravf
« on: December 15, 2011, 05:31:00 PM »
The one from Fullmoon Warfare was enjoyable, but kind of theatrical and goofy in its disparate elements. Like Tartaros and Absurd doing Thousand Swords. Definitely potential for great stuff.

Metal / Re: Song Structure in Metal
« on: December 15, 2011, 10:49:51 AM »
An insightful post. At least in some metal (e.g. Dawn of Possession era Immolation), structure is only apparent when the narrative returns to the familiar. It could be verse/chorus, but it's verse chorus in a way that's realized, as opposed to expected. This has parallels with the natural world, but it is a parallel of emotion, of sensing similarity and underlying union. I have no hesitation in agreeing with your philosophical viewpoint, but with one exception for the sake of caution: Accept that you yourself may be a pattern seeking animal, one to whom this becomes apparent whether it is present or not (I don't believe this, my views mirror what you have written).

How does a verse/chorus structure used by a band like say, Infester, differ from the verse/chorus of a metalcore band? Can I summarize what you are stating as; when structure reflects the truth, realization occurs? A metaphysical (transcendant) definition of art, how apt.

Edit: I believe I should expand on the parallel I mentioned. We do not have the ability to dissociate ourselves from our existence, though we are able to perceive of this possibility. Nothing is apparent until it occurs, yet there is What Came Before to draw from; History itself can be restated as the "recallable experience of humanity". In a song like the one mentioned, realization occurs because the familiar is in the context of what has intervened in between. It is however, an entirely perceptual, emotional "Eureka!". Romantic thinking gave this feeling a great deal of weight and importance, hence metal carried on some of the essence of this movement.

Edit: Link to the review!

Interzone / Re: The Pagan ideal
« on: December 15, 2011, 08:42:01 AM »
Many countries do not have stop signs of that nature incidentally. To answer your question though, for the purpose of veneration (bear with me). The symbols need not be anthropomorphic, that's where modernism can justifiably be applied. It serves the purpose of recognition of external truths for the majority at an emotional level. It is in the spiritual dimension (a neglected one) where the effect is exerted, I suppose you could call it psychological, but without the "sacred" element it's just not that potent imo. That's the argument for having any at all though, and not one for maintaing Pagan symbols. The argument for those comes from rich veins of material left behind; traditions to form new syntheses from. Your criticism there is justified and I agree with it, but the importance of the symbols themselves (sacred ones) is not to be understated.

Interzone / Re: Liberalism = racism
« on: December 15, 2011, 08:24:12 AM »
The President is black; that means black people in America must be doing alright! A half-white son of a Kenyan and a white woman, raised in Indonesia, then in Hawaii (by a white family) is president and you still need our help? Bad ethnic minority.

Though that may not have been your intent.

Interzone / Re: ✠
« on: December 13, 2011, 08:06:09 AM »
I've learned a lot from the argument. Does it really matter? Whatever anyone else is doing is their business.

Interzone / Re: ✠
« on: December 12, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »
To be clear, do you believe the doctrine yourself Erosion? Anti-modernity and a return to tradition notwithstanding, is this a vision for society or also a personal practice? A return to these traditions is a worldwide phenomenon interestingly; a natural reaction to the sorry state of modern existence one could say. What I think your view lacks (perhaps mistakenly) however, is role models. I would be interested to know how and where such a change would start (hypothetically). Outside certain European countries and (increasingly) a lot of the US, traditional practices are still fresh in the public consciousness. There, youth have something to emulate, something to contribute to towards a stable goal. What would serve this purpose for you?

I'm sure burning heretics has its place, but could you illustrate with a modern example of exactly who or what would merit this punishment if such an order came to be?

Interzone / Re: Growth of the brain
« on: December 12, 2011, 01:55:15 PM »
If anything, it reinforces the value of education. It's kind of painful seeing this kind of research being twisted this way and this; towards some ridiculous Lamarckism (misinterpreted I mean) or early indoctrination and such. I have to say, the worst offenders are the "liberals" in this regard, even though it is more an affirmation of the biological (part of the) nature, order and origin of our consciousnesses it is misconstrued as the triumph of "reason".

Interzone / Re: Liberalism = racism
« on: December 11, 2011, 12:49:47 PM »
That's a fair answer. Still, shouldn't the tone be one of a speaker, a leader that conforms to what the goal is? Someone with some social graces? It sounds written to mock only. Maybe that's just my twisted point of view, but it seems to be contradictory.

Interzone / Re: Experience: Excuse to claim "wisdom"?
« on: December 11, 2011, 12:17:59 PM »
Idiots are Idiots but not until they are.

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