No cultural direction = Perverted definition of art

[scourge]

Good observation. It isn't so much the blasphemous secularization of divinity into mere contemporary, brotherhood of man social acceptability. So what. The retarded solipsist wanted to display its personal teenage crushes and its liberal allegiances, a simple task to fake if one wished, before its fellow proles. Pity is appropriate alongside contempt if both are even possible toward the same subject.

[aquarius]

This video actually reminded me of the scene on Until the light takes us where Frost of Satyricon is cutting himself in front of an audience in Italy, and it's honestly one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen. Something I would expect from these idiots but not from a metal listener.

[Von List]

Frost is a moron.

[Wolfgang]

But really, it isn't that different than smearing cow blood all over yourself and doing a rain dance, eating and drinking the pretend blood of a deity,

It is incredibly different. One serves a higher purpose. One is simply a leftist being an asshole for no real reason.

No it doesn't. At least the leftist fruitcakes admit this nonsense is purely for fun or art or gay rights expression or something and they don't believe it serves any higher purpose. What higher purpose is there that primitive rituals serve?

[Von List]

You really have to ask that? Primitive rituals are there to honor transcendent forces that are important.



this boob is doing nothing but pissing on the damn floor to impress her fixie bike club

[Wolfgang]

You really have to ask that? Primitive rituals are there to honor transcendent forces that are important.



this boob is doing nothing but pissing on the damn floor to impress her fixie bike club

What forces are those?

Magic isn't real dude.

[Von List]

You really have to ask that? Primitive rituals are there to honor transcendent forces that are important.



this boob is doing nothing but pissing on the damn floor to impress her fixie bike club

What forces are those?

Magic isn't real dude.

No one said it was.


Natural forces that created meaning for people back then were worshiped through ritual. The Sun, for example. Then into human phenomena such as fertility and violence. These things mean something, and creating ritual around them solidfied their meaing and place in society through respecting them.

[Wolfgang]

You really have to ask that? Primitive rituals are there to honor transcendent forces that are important.



this boob is doing nothing but pissing on the damn floor to impress her fixie bike club

What forces are those?

Magic isn't real dude.

No one said it was.


Natural forces that created meaning for people back then were worshiped through ritual. The Sun, for example. Then into human phenomena such as fertility and violence. These things mean something, and creating ritual around them solidfied their meaing and place in society through respecting them.

I now understand your point better. But primitive rituals did not honor the the forces of nature as nature but rather, as super nature. Now that super nature has been put in its place, the urges to do these ritualistic activities remains. Some of us smear piss on ourselves and wear stocking caps indoors, others put spikes on their arm and blaspheme with a guitar and an amp. I prefer the latter. But both are basically rooted in the exact same conflict between the instinctual desire to perform rituals and modernism.

[analrapist]

Magic isn't real dude.

Prove it...

You can't. We can find some fakes and prove them wrong and claim that magic isn't real dude as a result but that just proves one fake was wrong.

[scourge]

The burden of proof lies with the advocate and not with the skeptic.

^^ non-science realism

[Jim Necroslaughter]

I imagine ancient ritual was also tied to time-keeping, especially the passage of the seasons.  They were ceremonies to keep people on the same page.  I am suspicious of the over the top, blood smearing/"magic powers" cliche we project on ancient people.  I doubt their understanding of "magic" was as literal as:  cause->effect.  In the Iliad they sacrifice cows to the Gods, then they go to battle, then, win or lose, they will sacrifice some more cows to the Gods for the next battle.  On some level, they had to understand it wasn't:  sacrifice cows=win battle.  I imagine if a tribe does rain dances year in and year out, and generation in and generation out, the real point is not that the dance causes rain, but to underscore the importance of rain to survival.  So when it rains you damn well better take advantage of it.  Rain is so damn important to our tribe we created a dance for it!

So what if they were honoring nature as super-nature anyway?  The key word is honor.  So what if they were "wrong" about specifics?  Where is the honor in this weirdo's performance piece?  If this performance piece and ancient ritual are "rooted" in the same "urge," then they differ in their execution.  One is reverent to fate/reality as a mystery, the other is a spectacle borne out of reality's literalness.  Her expression is basically one of disillusionment.  If these were ancient times, this chick wouldn't be the one in charge of leading the rain dance.  She has no aesthetic sense or flair for ceremony whatsoever.  She would be an alpha male's least favorite wife, and he has 9 of them.

[Conservationist]

I doubt their understanding of "magic" was as literal as:  cause->effect.

Of course it was not. It was message passing to the divine.

act -> divine -> effect

It's more complex than taking a hammer and bashing something.

I don't think we can prove or disprove magic. First, we're going to take a default position either way; if we think magic exists, we assume it is proven; otherwise, we assume it is not. This makes the two sides incompatible in the long run. But as Jim Mutilator says above, it's not a testable hypothesis, nor really is the presence of the divine or supernatural (which us monists insist is natural). By the same token, material science completely fails under analysis of any larger pattern than (proximate) cause->effect. As Plato illustrated, cause->effect should probably be understood as a study of patterns...

[Wolfgang]

I imagine ancient ritual was also tied to time-keeping, especially the passage of the seasons.  They were ceremonies to keep people on the same page.  I am suspicious of the over the top, blood smearing/"magic powers" cliche we project on ancient people.  I doubt their understanding of "magic" was as literal as:  cause->effect.  In the Iliad they sacrifice cows to the Gods, then they go to battle, then, win or lose, they will sacrifice some more cows to the Gods for the next battle.  On some level, they had to understand it wasn't:  sacrifice cows=win battle.  I imagine if a tribe does rain dances year in and year out, and generation in and generation out, the real point is not that the dance causes rain, but to underscore the importance of rain to survival.  So when it rains you damn well better take advantage of it.  Rain is so damn important to our tribe we created a dance for it!

Without pretending to postulate an alternative complete world view, I am increasingly suspicious with the urge here to constantly elevate the "ancients" as if whatever they were up to was somehow more enlightened than everything modern. It feels too reactionary to the ills of today. The ancients would sacrifice a cow to God A, lose the battle, and switch to God B if that is who their enemy would sacrifice too. Eventually, Christianity and Islam took the wishy washy nature of paganism away and pointed people in one firm direction win or lose. For better at times, and worse at times.

But I can agree that perhaps these urges for ritual and spirituality could be focused and applied better than they currently are.

So what if they were honoring nature as super-nature anyway?  The key word is honor.  So what if they were "wrong" about specifics?  Where is the honor in this weirdo's performance piece?  If this performance piece and ancient ritual are "rooted" in the same "urge," then they differ in their execution.  One is reverent to fate/reality as a mystery, the other is a spectacle borne out of reality's literalness.  Her expression is basically one of disillusionment.  If these were ancient times, this chick wouldn't be the one in charge of leading the rain dance.  She has no aesthetic sense or flair for ceremony whatsoever.  She would be an alpha male's least favorite wife, and he has 9 of them.

I don't know, his preferences probably depended on what else she smeared on herself and how well she was able to summon what ever else it was. But to the point itself, what would you recommend in place of this? What type of art and ritual should exist in a modern society where relative to most of history the general population is more grounded in reason compared to nature and super nature?

I wish our art honored and revered preserving nature. And not in a white-trash wolves silhouetted against a moon T-shirt style. Art that spread understanding that nature is more important for our species than keeping our coal mining jobs or the convenience of throwing your garbage on the ground.

[Jim Necroslaughter]

What type of art and ritual should exist in a modern society where relative to most of history the general population is more grounded in reason compared to nature and super nature?

We need ritual and art that challenges banality  In all seriousness, the Nazis understood this, and if there's one thing the Nazis did well it was ceremony.  Albert Speer was probably the closest thing they had to a legitimate intellectual, and I believe he was behind the ceremonies to a large extent.  Off the top of my head, there is a brief clip on Until the Light Takes Us, where it's dusk and the entire town is outside holding candles, walking around a body of water, basically.  This is what I would generally have in mind for public ceremony.  Even Burning Man, in its basic idea, gets it right in the sense of having a gigantic bonfire to celebrate the summer.  We essentially celebrate rituals all the time, anyway, it's just that their execution is lacking in "oomph."  The peeing girl is pure banality.  Hell, going to church would be less banal.

What gives this kind of vulgar art away is that it is more concerned with making a statement than with creating an experience.  I'll repeat:  there's no aesthetic sense or ceremonial flair here.  Metal actually understands this perfectly.  Metal creates an experience, it doesn't "make a statement."

[analrapist]

We should bring back public executions as well. This person killed my brother, now I'm going to kill him. One of you lucky people in the cheap seats gets to catch the head.