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Metalheads and Media

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 18, 2007, 10:50:38 PM
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Hah! No piece of art is a direct experience. You are following reality as filtered through the minds of others. the sooner you accept that, the sooner the posing can end.


No one is talking about experiencing the story directly, but experiencing the presentation.  If I go to the theater and watch Hamlet, this is direct experience - that does not mean that I myself am experiencing the actual events of the story, but that there is a direct experience with the performance that can never be had from merely reading a play from a book.

And the sooner you part ways with the trendy Continental postmodernisms, the sooner the 'posing' ends.

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 18, 2007, 11:50:21 PM
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No one is talking about experiencing the story directly, but experiencing the presentation.


That might fool drunk liberals (and they all drink, don't they?) in academia, but here we recognize it as simple wordplay.

The presentation is a form of presenting the story, which comes from the author's mind. You're wasting my time here.

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 19, 2007, 04:59:44 AM
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That might fool drunk liberals (and they all drink, don't they?) in academia, but here we recognize it as simple wordplay.

The presentation is a form of presenting the story, which comes from the author's mind. You're wasting my time here.


So you're seriously equating reading a play with actually experiencing it as it was intended to be experienced?  Does that mean that picking up the score to Beethoven's 9th is the same as going and seeing it performed?  And you have the gall to accuse me of 'wordplay'?

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 19, 2007, 06:10:48 AM
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Hah! No piece of art is a direct experience. You are following reality as filtered through the minds of others. the sooner you accept that, the sooner the posing can end.


And why is no art a direct experience, although it can be thought of latter that in now way makes the initial experience of it any less enjoyable, one does not listen to Beethoven's piano concertos (since Beethoven seems to be the composer of choice in this thread) and not enjoy it until you think about it after the performance is over. You enjoy it as you listen to it, is that not a direct experience?

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 19, 2007, 07:18:12 PM
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Does that mean that picking up the score to Beethoven's 9th is the same as going and seeing it performed?


If you can read music, yes it is.

The information is what matters, not the "one true experience." How Christian. How hipster. What is your problem? No, wait, don't tell me -- too many years looking for that one vital thread to life. Don't let academics get into your head, son.


Re: Metalheads and Media
July 20, 2007, 01:15:54 AM
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If you can read music, yes it is. The information is what matters, not the "one true experience."


You honestly cant believe hearing something and reading something create the same effect within the individual. My grandfather didn't listen to recorded music very often, but he played music, he played what he read. He didn't just read the score and leave it at that.

If this was in anyway accurate no one who was musically literate would ever listen to music again. Which seems to be far from the truth.

Music is first and foremost a hearing art, how can a hearing art create the same effect on paper.

And when you said its the information that matter there are many things in music that don't become apparent until read, some things can only be seen (or seen easily) until on paper but if the entire complexity of the music cannot be divulged from a score alone then knowing the information is reading and hearing.  

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 20, 2007, 02:58:21 PM
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If you can read music, yes it is.

The information is what matters, not the "one true experience." How Christian. How hipster. What is your problem? No, wait, don't tell me -- too many years looking for that one vital thread to life. Don't let academics get into your head, son.



This is already falling into absolutism. It isn't the same experience reading a score from Beethoven's 9th than actually witnessing a professional orchestra performing it. And with Shakespeare plays, it isn't all the same when it comes to performance; one must take into account the quality of Actors, costumes, props, etc. The only thing that remains just is the script. It could be said that the script is the only thing that remains "absolute".

Also, on the same subject of absolutism, since when was academia considered completely liberal? Sure most of it is ran for profit and is influenced by the insanity of our society, but I'd say that these professors still went through struggle to make ends meet. They could be right in many instances so why completely refute them when they have the right answer? This breeds ignorance and also leads to the common notion of fascists being "pigs". I think that for Fascism to co-exist in our world, it needs to let go of its presupposing sensationalism.
I can agree somewhat with the idea of "don't let academia to head", but it isn't all wrong and sometimes you shouldn't "let FASCISM get to your head" neither. I'd say that the ideas of the ANUS and CORRUPT are only theoritical solutions to the problems of society. Believe Law. Don't fully believe theory but don't completely neglect it either. Balance and Continuity with everything.
Signature: Something I didn't sign up for but found inherently true.

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 21, 2007, 12:40:02 PM
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Music is first and foremost a hearing art, how can a hearing art create the same effect on paper.


I'm going to take a middle path: it's nice to hear, but music is information. That's why tone-deaf composers like Robert Fripp can make works of great beauty.

I'm saddened by how trivial this topic has become. If I wanted this shit, I wouldn't bother contributing time to this forum, but would go to a(nother?) well-known metal posturing/poseur forum.

You're here dividing up reality into little slices, and then accusing each other of doing the same, and going in circles like distracted monkeys. Futility defined.

Back to topic, I don't see a need for film or video because they replace imagination with concrete images. For this reason, I'm going to have to say the popularity of the novel over the theatrical form -- replacing it in Shakespeare's time -- is not an accident.


Divus_de_Mortuus

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 21, 2007, 02:26:59 PM
A lot of aged needle-Nazis justify failure and lack of education as "dissent" and "avoidance of liberal education". That is an instant red flag when I am in a conversation and someone starts babbling along those lines.

Born I would avoid exchanges like these in the future. You don't tend to fare well. I am not sure you can hang with the youngsters anymore my friend. This is not a flame or an insult, but rather an observation intended to improve the forum's quality.

Re: Metalheads and Media
July 21, 2007, 04:17:51 PM
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Back to topic, I don't see a need for film or video because they replace imagination with concrete images. For this reason, I'm going to have to say the popularity of the novel over the theatrical form -- replacing it in Shakespeare's time -- is not an accident.



It's certainly no accident, but it has nothing to do with the artistic viability of the forms, and everything to do with the structure subsequent history.  The rise of the novel (in English literature) was a response not only to the historical conditions of the 17th century, but also to the changing structure of British society.

Whatever else is true of Tudor and early Stuart England, it remained, in essence, an aristocratic, feudal society structured around essentially medieval social and governmental mechanisms.  Drama - as well as other public performance traditions: bards, minstrelsy, oral epic poetry etc. - is a natural artistic fit for such societies.  While it can be enjoyed by men of all ranks, such performing arts were traditionally supported by aristocratic patronage.  As it is a performance-based artforms experienced publicly and collectively (before a time when performance could be recorded for posterity), theater did not lend itself to mass production and commodification.  The public nature of drama made it vulnerable to disruption by public disorder.

And here we come to the crux of it.  In the 17th century, public order was routinely disrupted through much of Europe, England included.  The English experience was, while perhaps less devastating than what occurred in the Germanies, probably the most severe in terms of long-term consequences.  The 17th century saw the power of the feudal aristocracy in England decisively broken, first by defeat in the Civil War, and then by the implementation of an extremely limited monarchy following the Glorious Revolution.  

The rest of Europe emerged from the era with their previous social systems more or less intact, however.  In this context, it is worth noting that drama retained its  primacy in much of the rest of Europe long after it was a fossil relic of a bygone era in merry old England.  It is, for instance, no accident that Moliere was the central literary figure of the Sun King's reign, nor that Chekov similarly dominated the literary scene of the last truly aristocratic society in Europe.

In England though, the aristocratic, essentially medieval society that had nurtured drama in Shakespeare's day was gone.  The society that emerged in its wake was a mercantile one, built on money and dominated by the commercial interests of the middle class.  Drama receded in importance precisely because it was a remnant of the aristocratic tradition.  What Napoleon's 'nation of shopkeepers' needed was art that:

1.) could be commodified and sold as a mass product

2.) affirmed the importance of the individual

and

3.) could be enjoyed individually and in private

Enter the novel.


Divus_de_Mortuus

Re: Metalheads and Media
August 04, 2007, 03:57:11 PM
But what of movies that in some ways represent the same longing for a return to the classical values and an affinity for periods gone by that metal does? Anyone who says they are "too metal" or "too smart" to like Gladiator, Braveheart or The Lord of the Rings movie adaptations needs to get real.

I recently saw The 300 and indeed it's not "high art", but it was very enjoyable and certainly free of the modern liberal/Christian social messages that plague most movies about pre-Christian or medieval times.(think King Aurthor, Kingdom of Heaven)

K

Re: Metalheads and Media
August 04, 2007, 10:25:08 PM
What about all that freedom rhetoric by Leonidas? That certainly not something he would be using as justification for conflict, it was a show of power, to establish themselves as a political force/power. freedom is definitely one of your 'liberal' values.

Are you talking about movies to simply nod off to and enjoy or to find some meaning? other than action, those movies don't supply anything. The saddest part is that many people take these movies as historical authorities.

Re: Metalheads and Media
August 04, 2007, 11:13:08 PM
Sparta was a purely militant state that required complete obedience and loyalty. Add to that the fact that they were ruled by monarch's shows there was nothing free about Sparta, they even had slaves.

And its simple why Leonidas fought, he belonged to the single most powerful city state in Greece. The rate at which the other city states were surrendering to Xerxes it was obvious a powerful force was needed to be put against the Persians in order to rally support. the 5000 Greeks who fought at Thermopylae (there were 300 Spartans but a total of 5000 Greeks sent from the other city states) gave such a great result it really helped to get the Greek people to support the defense of their country.

I think in the end roughly 50 of about 500 Creek city states fought against the Persians.

Thats why I didn't enjoy the 300 movie beyond the action, because it made Leonidas this great defender of democracy and freedom.

Divus_de_Mortuus

Re: Metalheads and Media
August 05, 2007, 12:05:28 AM
Just like in reality, they were fighting specifically for Sparta and mention Spartan men's superiority over all others constantly through out the movie, and beyond that, cast deformed and sickly babies onto the mountain side, yet were still portrayed in an entirely positive light. Your typical American movie would try to insert some negative undercurrent to something like that. The representation they were fighting for "freedom" was not that different from how they depicted it themselves. Actual Spartan citizens were "free men" as Spartans considered it. Also, remember Leonidas was a hereditary king as depicted in the movie, so that speech was entirely plausible as even rulers and kings had to play politics with their subjects. Stop looking for liberal messages when there aren't any. The only time I can recall in the movie where something overtly obvious appears is when the corrupt senator said "all men are not created equal, that's Sparta’s doctrine, not mine" or something to that effect. It is pretty obvious that was added just to further cast him in a negative light, despite that statement being totally opposite of both ancient Spartan life and their depiction in the movie.

Leonidas also expresses doubt in the existence of the Gods and there is no Christian undertone in this mythical retelling, unlike many others(ever read "Till We Have Faces"?). Like I said, it isn't "high art" but it is as good as movies get these days.

Re: Metalheads and Media
August 05, 2007, 12:44:17 AM
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What about all that freedom rhetoric by Leonidas? That certainly not something he would be using as justification for conflict, it was a show of power, to establish themselves as a political force/power. freedom is definitely one of your 'liberal' values.

I cannot think of a society in existence that has not had some concept of freedom or any of the other "liberal values" that you are trying to shoot down. To think otherwise is, as you referred to it, misinformed rhetoric.