Metalheads and Media

[K]

You caught me metal rip, I didn't actually watch the movie, but I saw all the for freedom! for Sparta! watch this movie! stuff, and it's based off of a pomp-ass frank miller comic. I haven't been to a theater in almost a year. I hate period pieces made recently because they butcher history, if not factually, then by misdirected emphases. the main problem I found with the 300, and why I chose not to see it, is that it is a movie based on a comic, not a movie based on an event.

[Thamuz]

pomp-ass

Irony.

[Divus_de_Mortuus]

You caught me metal rip, I didn't actually watch the movie, but I saw all the for freedom! for Sparta! watch this movie! stuff, and it's based off of a pomp-ass frank miller comic. I haven't been to a theater in almost a year. I hate period pieces made recently because they butcher history, if not factually, then by misdirected emphases. the main problem I found with the 300, and why I chose not to see it, is that it is a movie based on a comic, not a movie based on an event.

To be honest, it is about as historically accurate one could get for a major movie. That said, the director characterized it as "An opera, not a documentary". I think the biggest single criticism about historical inacuracy comes from the fact Leonidas called Athenians "boy lovers". This of course ignores the fact that most sources say pederasty in Sparta was chaste.

I understand your perspective. I didn't see it in theatres and expected absolutely nothing from it, but after viewing it, and then reading how the mainstream media panned it as racist(one going so far as to say "Adolph’s boys woulda loved it"), I find is surprisingly solid and indeed, in some ways, a refutation of modern values and egalitarianism.

[More Celt Than Sassenach]

To be honest, it is about as historically accurate one could get for a major movie. That said, the director characterized it as "An opera, not a documentary". I think the biggest single criticism about historical inacuracy comes from the fact Leonidas called Athenians "boy lovers". This of course ignores the fact that most sources say pederasty in Sparta was chaste.

I understand your perspective. I didn't see it in theatres and expected absolutely nothing from it, but after viewing it, and then reading how the mainstream media panned it as racist(one going so far as to say "Adolph’s boys woulda loved it"), I find is surprisingly solid and indeed, in some ways, a refutation of modern values and egalitarianism.

Their has long been a rivalry between Athens and Sparta and at times were even at war amongst each other, calling them boy lovers is the same as a person insulting someone from the south.

But even so the movie does put forth a positive light on something that would not be seen as good by our modern society I still felt it failed to really capture the noble Greek spirit.

[K]

Spartans calling Athenians boy lovers is a modern twist. Spartans invented something called the buddy system, where you would have two people taking care of each other's needs, including sex as well as bathing, hunting etc. In theory, fighting alongside your lover will make you fight harder.

[Divus_de_Mortuus]

Spartans calling Athenians boy lovers is a modern twist. Spartans invented something called the buddy system, where you would have two people taking care of each other's needs, including sex as well as bathing, hunting etc. In theory, fighting alongside your lover will make you fight harder.

This is incorrect on all points. Number one, sodomy being practiced with pederasty was forbidden in Sparta by most accounts(including Athenian historians) and even in Athenian society was still largely looked down on and a subject of debate. Secondly, the institution of pederasty is believed to have originated on Crete, not with Sparta. Thirdly, even the Athenians who during various stages in history were much more sexual in their practice, still wrote comedies and plays depicting the Spartans as effeminate homosexuals, even going so far as to associate the term "lacedaemon" with anal sex.

Where people criticize this movie the most, is really where it shines the brightest.

Like Nile recently pointed out, metal is not and cannot be an accurate representation of the medieval spirit or classical values. This movie portrays the "Noble Greek Spirit" as best as it can, albeit a bit more brutal and gruff than typically seen, but ultimately suffers from the same problem metal does. But wouldn't any modern depiction of a time gone by?

Hessians should enjoy this movie.

[K]

sodomy being practiced with pederasty was forbidden in Sparta by most accounts(including Athenian historians)  

"Most accounts", especially by rival city-state I am inclined to take with a grain of salt especially if it dealt with something as secretive and secluded as Sparta. as for invented, I concede to your point. your one about Athenian sexuality, I never mentioned that, and if it was implied I apologize for that was not intended. (my sources are from Greek and Roman philosophers, and have read ones against the buddy system theory, but I am inclined not to trust certain sources from Athenians because of ulterior motives, for example; Plato, who used Sparta as his base for the republic. ) I don't mean to be an ass, and I am perfectly capable of being persuaded to change my ideas of ancient Greece given a convincing enough argument.

My main problem with this movie is that it has nothing to offer me, just action and gung-ho nationalistic value. I do realize that any modern interpretation through entertainment and art mediums will not live up to the histories. But this, in my view, is just another comic-book movie. If all the frank miller wankery and if it was not so reliant of trendy aesthetics of modern cinema, I would be a little more accepting of a film like this.

[Divus_de_Mortuus]

Then dismiss Morbid Angel for their modern aesthetics as well.

Most sources, from numerous different Greek city states and Sparta itself imply the majority of Spartan pederasty was chaste, and not just Athens. The fact certain Athenian sources record they were strictly chaste alone is an argument for its validity, given the way anal sex and sodomy were viewed by the majority population. The Athenians would, in popular culture, label the Spartans as homosexual to undermine their credibility. In fact the biggest piece of evidence for Spartan sodomy is Athenian plays. Thus by your own logic, you should assume it was chaste, like the rest of history does. Perhaps your understanding of Greek writers and history in general mirrors the judgment on the philosophy and accuracy of a movie you haven't even seen.

Read the wiki-pederast article on it for more information.

[K]

Compared to what you've shown, my knowledge of Greece is cursory at best (thank you L.A. Unified school district). I Concede. I was an ass do to an unwaivering hatred of 21st century American Cinema. I might  have even seen it if it didn't have Frank Miller associated with it.

[death metal black metal]

Then dismiss Morbid Angel for their modern aesthetics as well.

It's one thing to make a modern product upholding ancient/eternal ideas, and another to reinterpret those ideas in a modern sense, which is what Hollywood does every time.

[Divus_de_Mortuus]

I was an ass do to an unwaivering hatred of 21st century American Cinema. I might  have even seen it if it didn't have Frank Miller associated with it.

Not really. I judge most modern movies without seeing them as well, and like you expected this to be just another comic book movie, but as it turns out, it's not.

I wasn't aware of who Frank Miller is, but that Sin City movie was at least visually interesting, some what nihilistic and graphically violent. Not bad.

[Divus_de_Mortuus]

It's one thing to make a modern product upholding ancient/eternal ideas, and another to reinterpret those ideas in a modern sense, which is what Hollywood does every time.

I'll buy that, but still, there are representations from Hollywood that come off better than others. 300, Braveheart, Gladiator, Apocalypto and esspecially Lord of the Rings are all recent movies that spring to mind. Sure, even with these movies there is bound to be some social messages here or there, but that never stopped me from enjoying Terrorizer or Brutal Truth. I enjoy them and can't imagine why most hessians wouldn't.

[beyond_godlike]

I don't understand metal rip. I saw all those movies you mentioned and i thought they were 100% crap. They're supposed to portray the ideals of these civilizations but I could get the same thing out of history texts. The only thing that could redeem the movies would be good battle sequences and lots of action but there wasn't. I hate these ancient battling armies movies. They just show individual killings instead of showing the battle so you can't be immersed in it. You're supposed to feel sorry for the people and be moved, but I guess that's why i don't enjoy the movies because I couldn't care less about their personal plights. Historical accuracy shouldn't matter in movies unless they're documentaries. Facts are skewed to achieve many things in movies. In practice it matters because most people are ignorant fools and take movies as fact it damages them. But other than that, historical inaccuracy should not make the movie un-enjoyable.

BTW, I saw the movie 300 in it's entirety at a movie theater and did not like it.  

[oscar the cat]

If you'd never seen a movie or tv show, would your life be:

A) better
C) worse

Just answer the motherfucking question, all of you.

[beyond_godlike]

Most tv i watch is documentaries and i almost never watch movies. I'd prefer to keep the knowledge from the documentaries.