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Music for the Intellectual Elite

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 01, 2008, 01:09:43 AM
Other than the loose corellation between appearance and physical reality how is this not dualism?  We only know physical reality by how it appears to us, assuming that it has some existence separate to our perception of it is an assumption of massive proportions unless one has knowledge of higher priniples which can satisfactorily define manifestation itself.

To this we can quote Nietzsche, the lie is a condition of life. All men impose themselves on the universe without exception. Thus man will never know reality, only appearance.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 01, 2008, 06:18:49 AM
Other than the loose corellation between appearance and physical reality how is this not dualism?  We only know physical reality by how it appears to us, assuming that it has some existence separate to our perception of it is an assumption of massive proportions unless one has knowledge of higher priniples which can satisfactorily define manifestation itself.

To this we can quote Nietzsche, the lie is a condition of life. All men impose themselves on the universe without exception. Thus man will never know reality, only appearance.

Then what's the point of trying to assert values at all?

Eg.  To one person work of art A appears to be good

To another person it appears to be bad

Both are right in what they perceive but neither have access to reality

Therefore whether or not it is good or bad is irrelevant, because the reality cannot be accessed, therefore subjective judgements are correct without exception

This can't lead anywhere good surely

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 01, 2008, 08:27:32 AM
Appearance -- how things look to a human being

Physical reality -- how they are

Other than the loose corellation between appearance and physical reality how is this not dualism?

HAHAHAHA

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 01, 2008, 09:21:51 AM
Other than the loose corellation between appearance and physical reality how is this not dualism?  We only know physical reality by how it appears to us, assuming that it has some existence separate to our perception of it is an assumption of massive proportions unless one has knowledge of higher priniples which can satisfactorily define manifestation itself.

To this we can quote Nietzsche, the lie is a condition of life. All men impose themselves on the universe without exception. Thus man will never know reality, only appearance.

Then what's the point of trying to assert values at all?

Eg.  To one person work of art A appears to be good

To another person it appears to be bad

Both are right in what they perceive but neither have access to reality

Therefore whether or not it is good or bad is irrelevant, because the reality cannot be accessed, therefore subjective judgements are correct without exception

This can't lead anywhere good surely

Going back to my table example, as a noumenon, the table cannot really 'feel' like anything. In fact, most solid objects are nothing but empty space, but our bodies are designed to think they're hard. Sure, 'hardness' is somewhat subjective, but this subjective interpretation must still correspond with reality. If I throw a table at you, you're not going to say, "Well, it's mostly empty space, so I'm not going to bother moving," right? Right.

Speaking to dualism: We're obviously not limited to phenomena and noumena; ideals and principles are neither. But even if we were, I think it's time we put an end to using dualism derogatorily. If dualism is false in a specific instance and some alternative is true, then this is adhering to the true/false dichotomy, itself a dualist set which exists all over the place in nature. Sometimes there really are patterns of two.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 01, 2008, 10:11:29 AM
I think anyone using the term "Intellectual Elite" should prove that eliteness, through publication of distinct ideas, and through action.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 02, 2008, 12:35:53 AM
Other than the loose corellation between appearance and physical reality how is this not dualism?  We only know physical reality by how it appears to us, assuming that it has some existence separate to our perception of it is an assumption of massive proportions unless one has knowledge of higher priniples which can satisfactorily define manifestation itself.

To this we can quote Nietzsche, the lie is a condition of life. All men impose themselves on the universe without exception. Thus man will never know reality, only appearance.

Then what's the point of trying to assert values at all?

Eg.  To one person work of art A appears to be good

To another person it appears to be bad

Both are right in what they perceive but neither have access to reality

Therefore whether or not it is good or bad is irrelevant, because the reality cannot be accessed, therefore subjective judgements are correct without exception

This can't lead anywhere good surely

Going back to my table example, as a noumenon, the table cannot really 'feel' like anything. In fact, most solid objects are nothing but empty space, but our bodies are designed to think they're hard. Sure, 'hardness' is somewhat subjective, but this subjective interpretation must still correspond with reality. If I throw a table at you, you're not going to say, "Well, it's mostly empty space, so I'm not going to bother moving," right? Right.

Speaking to dualism: We're obviously not limited to phenomena and noumena; ideals and principles are neither. But even if we were, I think it's time we put an end to using dualism derogatorily. If dualism is false in a specific instance and some alternative is true, then this is adhering to the true/false dichotomy, itself a dualist set which exists all over the place in nature. Sometimes there really are patterns of two.

Everything we perceive through the senses is appearance, just because the table affects me in some way does not somehow prove that it has a reality separate from my perception of it.  I don't see where the assumption is coming from (based on your evidence and those supporting you) that physical reality is anything more than a subjective perception.  What convinces you that you are actually perceiving anything which transcends your perception at all?

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 02, 2008, 01:22:05 AM
Then what's the point of trying to assert values at all?

Eg.  To one person work of art A appears to be good

To another person it appears to be bad

Both are right in what they perceive but neither have access to reality

Therefore whether or not it is good or bad is irrelevant, because the reality cannot be accessed, therefore subjective judgements are correct without exception

This can't lead anywhere good surely

Nietzsche only gave ideas of a goal, never a path because he knew the will to power would appear in some things to some, and in others to some. One man prefers Beethoven, the other Bach. They both believe they find the will to power present in both the composers works, but more so in their preferred composer. It is not so much a matter of what is good and bad but as to what creates the most power in man.

The will to power does have common characteristics across all humans thus allowing comparisons and value to exist. A man who self pities, cannot have the will to power for he has grown to hate himself to handle a difficult situation rather than the actual strength to rise above it. Or in the case of Buddhist monks, to remove hardships altogether by removing all external needs and creating an inner peace. Music that has the will of self pity, is therefore, by Nietzsche's definition bad. Great differences in will can easily be assessed and judged.

Its only when both wills are similar in stature that there is real debate of better and worse. so while in the case of comparing Bach and Beethoven a resolution might never be met much stronger comparisons, say Bach and Britney Spears there is an apparent heirechy. That is the beauty of the will to power, a very personal and subjective notion, but still bound collectively by similar principles and subject to external criticism. 

Thus I stick with what I said before. All men impose themselves on the universe without exception. Thus man will never know reality, only appearance. Although I would like to change it to, man will never truly know reality rather than man will never know reality. As so imply that we can be more in tune with reality than others, or less so but man will never actual see reality for what it is.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 02, 2008, 02:23:36 AM
Then what's the point of trying to assert values at all?

Eg.  To one person work of art A appears to be good

To another person it appears to be bad

Both are right in what they perceive but neither have access to reality

Therefore whether or not it is good or bad is irrelevant, because the reality cannot be accessed, therefore subjective judgements are correct without exception

This can't lead anywhere good surely

Nietzsche only gave ideas of a goal, never a path because he knew the will to power would appear in some things to some, and in others to some. One man prefers Beethoven, the other Bach. They both believe they find the will to power present in both the composers works, but more so in their preferred composer. It is not so much a matter of what is good and bad but as to what creates the most power in man.

The will to power does have common characteristics across all humans thus allowing comparisons and value to exist. A man who self pities, cannot have the will to power for he has grown to hate himself to handle a difficult situation rather then the actual strength to rise above it. Or in the case of Buddhist monks, to remove hardships altogether by removing all external needs and creating an inner peace. Music that has the will of self pity, is therefore, by Nietzsche's definition bad. Great differences in will can easily be assessed and judged.

Its only when both wills are similar in stature that there is real debate of better and worse. so while in the case of comparing Bach and Beethoven a resolution might never be met much stronger comparisons, say Bach and Britney Spears there is an apparent heirechy. That is the beauty of the will to power, a very personal and subjective notion, but still bound collectively by similar principles and subject to external criticism. 

Thus I stick with what I said before. All men impose themselves on the universe without exception. Thus man will never know reality, only appearance. Although I would like to change it to, man will never truly know reality rather then man will never know reality. As so imply that we can be more in tune with reality then others, or less so but man will never actual see reality for what it is.

This is, at least, honest.  However, the acceptance of ignorance is still far worse than actually overcoming it, and you still fail to see that it is absolutely irrelevant whether or not appearance and reality are fundamentally different things.  From your point of view, for all intents and purposes, perception is reality, because nothing else can be known, from another perspective, perception holds no water in the face of knowledge of immutable Principles of existence, not bound by fragmentary pieces of knowledge (perspectives) or cosmic laws of manifestation.  I am quiote happy to continue this discussion through pm (this goes for everyone involved), but this forum need not get cluttered by these arguments (ASBO I'm talking to you  ;))

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 14, 2008, 10:19:57 AM
All men impose themselves on the universe without exception. Thus man will never know reality, only appearance. Although I would like to change it to, man will never truly know reality rather than man will never know reality. As so imply that we can be more in tune with reality than others, or less so but man will never actual see reality for what it is.

It's a relative universe: reality never sees reality for what it actually is, because the subject and object are intertwined.

It makes more sense to study process, and the logic of information, to predict likely outcomes, because each outcome is a cause of the next.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 23, 2008, 09:15:43 PM
This is, at least, honest.  However, the acceptance of ignorance is still far worse than actually overcoming it, and you still fail to see that it is absolutely irrelevant whether or not appearance and reality are fundamentally different things.  From your point of view, for all intents and purposes, perception is reality, because nothing else can be known, from another perspective, perception holds no water in the face of knowledge of immutable Principles of existence, not bound by fragmentary pieces of knowledge (perspectives) or cosmic laws of manifestation.  I am quiote happy to continue this discussion through pm (this goes for everyone involved), but this forum need not get cluttered by these arguments (ASBO I'm talking to you  ;))

My point was that the inconvenient fact of life is ignorance will never be completely expelled. I do not propose we worship ignorance, but rather we overcome it when it is possible. As I said before the will to power is subject to external criticism because, while not being a physical thing in itself is effected by human experiences with physical objects and imagined concepts. It can be made clear what does and does not help the will to power in man to a certain level of exactness. The will to power lets man act in the most healthy and cautious manner when facing ignorance. Man's ignorance of the meaning of life is the pure reason Nietzsche created the will to power, as an answer to this ignorance without actually unveiling the truth, simply because in this example the truth is unknowable. The will to power gives a reason why, to all ignorances without actually dispelling them. After all if man really could ascertain real answers not of the how or what but rather why man should surely have something to show for it with 80,000 years at least of thought of the subject, yet still not a single why answered.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 23, 2008, 11:43:07 PM
This is, at least, honest.  However, the acceptance of ignorance is still far worse than actually overcoming it, and you still fail to see that it is absolutely irrelevant whether or not appearance and reality are fundamentally different things.  From your point of view, for all intents and purposes, perception is reality, because nothing else can be known, from another perspective, perception holds no water in the face of knowledge of immutable Principles of existence, not bound by fragmentary pieces of knowledge (perspectives) or cosmic laws of manifestation.  I am quiote happy to continue this discussion through pm (this goes for everyone involved), but this forum need not get cluttered by these arguments (ASBO I'm talking to you  ;))

My point was that the inconvenient fact of life is ignorance will never be completely expelled. I do not propose we worship ignorance, but rather we overcome it when it is possible. As I said before the will to power is subject to external criticism because, while not being a physical thing in itself is effected by human experiences with physical objects and imagined concepts. It can be made clear what does and does not help the will to power in man to a certain level of exactness. The will to power lets man act in the most healthy and cautious manner when facing ignorance. Man's ignorance of the meaning of life is the pure reason Nietzsche created the will to power, as an answer to this ignorance without actually unveiling the truth, simply because in this example the truth is unknowable. The will to power gives a reason why, to all ignorances without actually dispelling them. After all if man really could ascertain real answers not of the how or what but rather why man should surely have something to show for it with 80,000 years at least of thought of the subject, yet still not a single why answered.

What if man did possess the Truth, and it has simply been forgotten by all but a tiny minority?  This is in fact, what has happened, man has simply lost the ability to think with a unified conciousness, and as a result, all things serve only to increase his confusion.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 24, 2008, 01:41:52 AM
What if man did possess the Truth, and it has simply been forgotten by all but a tiny minority?  This is in fact, what has happened, man has simply lost the ability to think with a unified conciousness, and as a result, all things serve only to increase his confusion.

If man possessed the truth, at least in terms of a metaphysical reason for existence man can finally philosophize with a clearly a defined benchmark of quality on ethics, metaphysics and aesthetics. What exactly do you mean a unified consciousness?

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 24, 2008, 01:51:14 AM
What if man did possess the Truth, and it has simply been forgotten by all but a tiny minority?  This is in fact, what has happened, man has simply lost the ability to think with a unified conciousness, and as a result, all things serve only to increase his confusion.

If man possessed the truth, at least in terms of a metaphysical reason for existence man can finally philosophize with a clearly a defined benchmark of quality on ethics, metaphysics and aesthetics. What exactly do you mean a unified consciousness?

Philosophy implies a search, when Truth is known philosophy is redundant.  By unified conciousness I mean to say that Truth is only accessable when the boundary between knower and known is reduced to perfect unity.  This is what is means to say that "true knowledge consists in identity with its object".

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 24, 2008, 03:55:23 AM
Can anyone in more and better terms describe the intellectual parts of music? This does not suffice for me.

You can feel easily and within just seconds which music will be challenging for your understanding and which won't. That's what "intellectual music" is : challenging and playing with your brain and your ability to grasp what's going on and how the piece is organized both vertically and horizontally. Music challenging for the brain is music that doesn't tell you from the start what will be its structure and phrasing for all the piece (unlike modern pop music : in other words, music that isn't that obviously predictable)  ; music that will propose you different layers of phrases for your brain to follow separately or at the same time depending on what you prefer/can do (you can focus on a second violin melodic line, or the second violin + the cello, or all the instrument lines together) ; music that will progressively repeat patterns at various moments to let you imagine and discover the hidden structure that led to this repetition. Etc.

Darkthrone's Transilvanian Hunger is the absolute apparent minimalization of intellectual music : there's only one new (multi-layered) phrase appearing in the songs, or about that ; but hell, it is so incredibly well placed and fitting between the previous one and its return, that it instantly creates the whole structure, direction and *meaning* of a perfectly coherent and dramatic piece of great music. Darkthrone understood everything and put it inside the most direct mold that was possible to use without losing anything in the process. To understand intellectual music, play the album Transilvanian Hunger on repeat and grasp why the only change in the songs is so incredibly coherent and intelligent, and makes the whole piece have sense. Then play anything else and you'll find easily the intelligence or lack thereof of a piece of music.

Re: Music for the Intellectual Elite
July 24, 2008, 12:02:23 PM
Philosophy implies a search, when Truth is known philosophy is redundant.  By unified conciousness I mean to say that Truth is only accessable when the boundary between knower and known is reduced to perfect unity.  This is what is means to say that "true knowledge consists in identity with its object".

Philosophy is not useless if such a truth as the meaning of life existed. If the Christian god existed and made himself known to all it does not answer all of life's problems, only gives a point with which all things can be judged. Questions such as is this act condoned by the by the bible, why did God do what he did and even questions to do with his infallibility and his acts that a normal man would consider a mistake. Knowing these kinds of truth still leaves room for philosophy, there will be it so long as a man is different from another man. So to any man, philosophy is only useless when the goal is not only defined but reached. Also by your definition of unified consciousness, man, as far as modern science understands has never had it.