Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Haiti & foreign aid

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
January 29, 2010, 01:50:49 PM
Ok, here's where we differ: I'd fight for victory, not evolution. Try telling 5.000 men that the reason why we lost 25.000 men today is because it's good for evolution, they'll probably lose faith in you and refuse to take your orders. Nobody fights to lose. If you're a general and you lose 25.000 men in a battle then honorary suicide is the only way you can contribute to evolution.

The purposes don't cancel out each other. The only way you can contribute to universe is by doing your best. The best man/army/nation winning the fight is nothing but good. A good general tells his men what they need to hear, not what he thinks about the grand cosmic plan. Agreed about the honorary suicide.

Quote
But you say that the construction of the pyramid itself would be good enough, perhaps even if it was shaped like a phallus? What if globalization and the assimilation of all races was part of the great cosmic design, you'd support it? I consider myself to be a nihilist because I don't believe in universal moral values or a greater cosmic design. And as a nihilist I'd even fight a real god if I thought it was necessary. I fear that your arguments ultimately lead to fatalism. Conforming to your opponents is defeat and I read you saying that if your opponent was stronger then you'd conform to them. For what? If Obama gets 100 more bodyguards you'd seriously think he's greater for it?

The phallus is a perfect shape. I don't understand what's questionable or hard to understand about this point of view. I might think Stalin's regime was horrible, or the Roman Catholic Church, but I have nothing but respect for the power, symbolism and control they wielded. If I lived in their time, I would fight them... and be glad to have such a worthy and intimidating challenge.

Victory against the weak is cheap, so why not fight the best? I'd rather take on Obama's 100 bodyguards than a 100 walking corpses from Haiti.

I don't object to fatalism in the pagan sense (ragnarók).

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
January 29, 2010, 01:53:47 PM
I have nothing but respect for the power, symbolism and control they wielded.

Do you respect them in the slightest?

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
January 29, 2010, 03:04:42 PM
I can understand the respect for the ability to manipulate large audiences these people had, but doesn't this sort of top-down government create weak people, and foster not only their misguided beliefs, but their destructive (i.e. environmentally ignorant, mind-numbingly moral and vapidly compassionate whining) behavior as well?

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
January 29, 2010, 03:33:41 PM
Devamitra, thanks for your clear answers. While we do disagree on this I understand and respect your position. I think your concept of respecting but still resisting authority is very idealistic and as every ideal it's probably difficult to maintain. I definitely prefer to fight 100 already-dead Haitians over 100 of Obamas bodyguards, but that's because I don't have any experience fighting 100 people at the same time so it would be nice to practice :P

Octuple, sorry if I overreacted. I was under the impression that you were questioning my knowledge of English and thereby trying to weaken my arguments. You're right that ultimately the victories of a successful general will influence evolution and the spreading of racial qualities, the accomplishments of Alexander the Great are a good example of this. But in this day and age the military victories of the west only serve to globalize the planet further, how positive an evolution like that is is debatable.

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
January 29, 2010, 05:29:09 PM
But in this day and age the military victories of the west only serve to globalize the planet further, how positive an evolution like that is is debatable.


Yes, that is, evolution is not teleological, it can bring us bad results to a certain point, not even cultural evolution. As you point, modern military it's on an incredible peak in technology and organization, but, what's good in that?

We have made several transformations to technique in order to ensure the existence of 7 billion people (replication of genes), is that a success?

What I wanted is to get this point: without universal values, is impossible, I think, to define victory above a notion of genetic warfare, while I think Tradition can be, actually, teleological. Just, perhaps and exaggerated conclusion of mine...

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
January 29, 2010, 11:40:47 PM
I can understand the respect for the ability to manipulate large audiences these people had, but doesn't this sort of top-down government create weak people, and foster not only their misguided beliefs, but their destructive (i.e. environmentally ignorant, mind-numbingly moral and vapidly compassionate whining) behavior as well?

It depends on the virtue of those in control. Government is a tool. In the right hands, it may be used to help guide people to their full potential.

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
January 30, 2010, 05:05:46 AM
But in this day and age the military victories of the west only serve to globalize the planet further, how positive an evolution like that is is debatable.


Yes, that is, evolution is not teleological, it can bring us bad results to a certain point, not even cultural evolution. As you point, modern military it's on an incredible peak in technology and organization, but, what's good in that?

We have made several transformations to technique in order to ensure the existence of 7 billion people (replication of genes), is that a success?

What I wanted is to get this point: without universal values, is impossible, I think, to define victory above a notion of genetic warfare, while I think Tradition can be, actually, teleological. Just, perhaps and exaggerated conclusion of mine...

Well, the universal value which is most likely to exist is power, one could argue that without power things could not exist. But power as a universal meaning would be impossible to define other than defining it as the difference between what is and what is not. It fits in a nihilistic way to look at existence as something which simply is and that we as mortals are merely trying to give meaning to our existence. But as mortals we're not aware of what happens to us after we stop existing (death) so this value of power would only count in a physical universe, perhaps not in a spiritual one.
I'd say tradition is too earthly to bring up in a universal context unless we some day find alien cultures. Until that day we don't know whether advanced culture and tradition are only human products or if they are indeed universal. If aliens can come up with their own culture without ever having heard of ours then that would mean culture is indeed a universal value.


Re: Haiti & foreign aid
February 06, 2010, 10:48:26 AM
Sounds like a new campaign. "Fuck Haiti".
I would support it.
easy to say while you are protected by the comfortable shield of Capitalist America, that stands on (mostly) healthy ground.
Not to mention that all supporting this "campaign" entails is sitting on your fat ass and doing nothing.  "Fuck Haiti" is not a solution.  If you don't like the current state of Haiti, do something to help fix it.  If you don't care, fine, but don't pretend you're accomplishing anything.

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
February 06, 2010, 07:06:53 PM
I spent 4 months in Haiti in 2003. They shit in the middle of the streets there. Fuck Haiti.

Re: Haiti & foreign aid
February 07, 2010, 02:12:04 AM
People like to cry over foreign places or romanticize them, because people hate their own lives. That's why all the make-work talking heads are weeping over Haiti, and even the fat impoverished people in grocery stores are sending their $10 through their cell phones. It's a giant scam that will contribute nothing in the end except "good feelings," and as with drugs, people will do a lot for that.

That's true, but there is also a parallel factor at work. There is a professional strata of people, "experts", who use events like these to get ahead by going and directly contributing to humanitarian relief. It's quite a bit like Bernard Madoff's case, where an unscrupulous guy uses his circumstances and incoming opportunities to get himself ahead, but society pays the price for him.

This class of expert is the medical professional who flies in, patches people up for a couple days, then flies home receiving all the back pats and golf claps from family, friends and those collegues who couldn't go. It's street cred again. If he drags an orphan or two back with him for adoption, why that's another order of magnitude more valuable cred.

Hey, what judge, besides an Evil One, is going to lay the hammer down on a malpractice offender who in his career happened to have collected humanitarian opportunity credits like Haiti for example? What hospital board is going to ask such a Great Guy to resign? Nah, humanitarian cred is resume material in bold type and grounds for senior staff advisory promotion: no more bloody hands or urine stained smock. It's suit and mahogany desk time, baby, yeah!