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Pure Metal and ANUS

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 15, 2010, 11:18:49 PM

The minority is dumber.
It is very important that you don't lapse into this way of thinking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

I am aware of the appeal to majority fallacy.  What must be remembered though, is in the context of this phrase, majority does not refer to the major chunk of the human population in general; instead, it refers to the majority of a group one associates with. For example, few Americans who conform to the "majority" care about the fact that more Chinese outnumber them and hold contrary views, because the Chinese are not part of their social group. A member of ANUS is as susceptible to becoming a victim of this error as much as a member of mainstream society.  That is why the minority is dumber; it is pretentious enough to feel safe from this mistake, when it is equally vulnerable.

Quote
"Oh come on, early Death and Obituary Cannibal Corpse and Deicide is not that complex, and those are mostly bigger names.  Plus, I think you'd be shocked to see that a lot of bands that blend metal with other genres like alternative, glam, hiphop, etc. are outsellling those bands.  Let's not base this off of what is more popular." Do you mean that all early Deicide, including Legion, is simple? If so, can you play/write something like these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsg7vMVyi78 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5qTnm0Lgp4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-3N8NRmWo4&feature=related

I could not play that music, but I also could not even play an AC/DC song.  I am a vocalist, an expressive one but not a technical one.  I do not play any instruments.  The level of technicality there is solid, but I would not call those very complex songs in composition, nor would I say they are more technical than what had been explored in metal already.

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"I definitely agree that Bathory sounds Wagnerian in many ways, the other bands less overtly so but I can see where you're coming from; I must say though, bands like Queen and Meat Loaf also have some very Wagnerian songs, and yet I would not argue they are metal.  Wagnerianism is a component of the metal spirit, but not its entirety; I think a lot of "epic" and power metal bands sound more Wagnerian than black metal.  If you hear the song "Gods of War" by Manowar, I think it is very overtly Wagnerian, more obviously so than even Bathory.  But there are other ways to be romantic without being Wagnerian, an example being horror; the song Black Sabbath is romantic and metal in a more horrific, fear-driven way, but equally metal.  I's the romanticism that counts, not specifically the Wagnerianism in every case."
Wagner's works were much more ambiguous and pessimistic(in the Schopenhauerian sense) than anything Manowar have created: the "good guys" do not always win. Remember that Götterdämmerung ends with the usurpation of the natural order and the destruction of the cosmos.

The good guys do not always win in Manowar.  There is the song "Bridge of Death," the tragic downfall of a man who is seduced into Hell by Satan told through the victim's eyes.  There is the song "Guyana (Cult of the Damned)" which tells of another tragic downfall, that of the infamous Jonestown cult where hundreds of innocent victims were killed by a false prophet.  Numerous Manowar songs deal with wars where who the "good guys" are is debatable; they have sung about wars between the Greeks and the city of Troy, the Native American tribes and white settlers, the Confederates and the Union soldiers in the American Civil War (from both sides), as well as the classic Vikings versus Christian nations.  And interesting enough, they have sung Christian music as well; keep in mind they have done Satanic material, too.)  They have sung about various struggles as omnicient narrators, and first-hand accounts on both sides, good and evil.

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'I don't dislike punk in metal, in fact I love it.  I just don't think it's superior to pure metal.  I even like pure punk, like the Ramones.  Now, I am not a punk though, and I do not share (most) of their ideals even if I like the music.  I'm more critical of American hardcore punk than the original English punk bands, though.  I do not like how so many thrash bands tried to strip away the leather costumes, and the elements that made heavy metal a vibrant culture.  A lot of speed/thrash bands highly influenced by hardcore punk would say "Fuck the leather. Fuck the costumes. Fuck the spikes.  We're going out there with street-cred."'

Hold on a second. Did you read all of my other posts? If you had, then you would have seen all of the photographic evidence that I had provided to prove that that was not the case. I'll repost all the links again for you.

I know that plenty of hardcore bands like Discharge dressed in a similar way to metal bands, but keep in mind they are British.  I find that Discharge had a larger influence on Satanic and proto-black thrash, and black metal would clearly be the exception of extreme metal where costumes are the norm.  Death metal clearly have a less theatrical approach, more influenced by the American hardcore bands; specifically, I mean the ones that mattered and were influential to the scene of bands like Metallica, Megadeth, and Exodus.  I think the best example might be early D.R.I., and we could throw Black Flag and Minor Threat in there too.  A lot of the early thrash was very theatrical, and it is a documented fact that both Overkill and Slayer abandoned their costumes and make-up out of pressure from the Bay Are scene, probably the most anti-image of them all.  That attitude spread across the whole metal scene rapidly; Bobby Blitz has said that looking back he wished he would have kept the costumes for at least a while longer, because he put a lot of effort into and had much fun with them; however, he claimed that the Bay Area scene were harassing bands that painted their faces.  The attitude spread from East to West coast very quickly, and by now it is the dominating outlook in thrash, death, and grindcore.  It was an attitude that can be traced to the American punk and hardcore scene, and I emphasize American.  It is an attitude that created more posing than it intended to destroy; have you ever read Gary Holt's recent confession of being a huge Ratt and Motley Crue fan from the start, but he had to secretly listen to them out of fear of being literally assaulted?  Did you know Paul Baloff has been reported to have harassed King Diamond and his management?  Yes, King Diamond, not anything near glam, but he painted his face.  It is around this time that a significant portion of the metal community lost the romantic and Wagnerian (in other words, the real true metal) spirit at the hand of Americanized punk.  And believe me, it carried into extreme metal, especially thrash and death metal where it is common to honor a man like Paul Baloff as an influential godfather.

And no, a few spikes isn't enough.
Good, that's what I was expecting you to say.

Legion, besides being one of my favorites, is an undisputed classic not only within the confines of this organization, but also ubiquitously throughout the metal community. Give it a few more listens before you write it off. Pay close attention to the drums; everything else will fall into place once you can follow the (initially baffling) rhythms.

Why do you emphasize the American scene? The artists in question didn't. Metallica has done a Discharge cover, and Megadeth did a Sex Pistols cover, so I certainly wouldn't exclude the British bands from the chain of influence. You've also got to take the works of The Misfits/Samhain into account. As far as other influences on death metal go, the importance of Celtic Frost/Hellhammer cannot be overstated.

I was generalizing my perception of the band's weltanschauung from tracks like "Sons Of Odin" and "Thor". I'll check out the songs you listed as well.

Remember that there will always be exceptions to the rule. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.metalkult.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/possessedgroup.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.metalkult.com/classic-demos/demo-download-possesseds-1985-death-metal/&usg=__S9Cy5bZtpQttYVoh5eNrTc1xvUY=&h=285&w=450&sz=95&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=NbqGg11UgAtvZM:&tbnh=136&tbnw=176&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPossessed%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1263%26bih%3D603%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=452&vpy=122&dur=2005&hovh=179&hovw=282&tx=157&ty=91&ei=UshoTM3wGcL38AaqlZy3BA&oei=F8hoTMeOO4P_8AbSsO2tBA&esq=14&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBWpLCSEdLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6S-zxbaJuo

Given your aesthetic and musical preferences, I think that you would enjoy the entirety of Absu's corpus, with the exception of their latest lp. Their work is a summation of metal's history until the present day.

I'm unfamiliar with most of the classic works of traditional metal, so I'll just include my favorite words of every other genre. Note that this list does not even come close to being exhaustive.

1.Pierced From Within-Suffocation
2.Blessed Are The Sick-Morbid Angel
3.Here In After-Immolation
4.Nespithe-Demilich
5.Obscura-Gorguts
6.To The Depths...In Degradation-Infester
7.Inbreeding The Anthropophagi-Deeds Of Flesh
8.Beneath The Remains-Sepultura
9.Far Away From The Sun-Sacramentum
10.Unquestionable Presence-Atheist

Also, be sure to give my namesake a listen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tONQf1psfLI






Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 15, 2010, 11:29:15 PM
Oh, and give Helstar a try as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEs1AWf1eHs

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 12:07:16 AM
Night Of The Demon: Take a look on youtube on the extreme metal songs recommended by the member above. You might enjoy them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kZI7b7wJA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEUucBEEqnI

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 01:54:34 AM
These differences in opinion is where the subjectivity of quality comes in.  For example, what I like about that Demon album is that it touched me like no other record as a statement

I can't believe that any of the regulars are still paying any attention to this guy.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 04:13:28 AM

Legion, besides being one of my favorites, is an undisputed classic not only within the confines of this organization, but also ubiquitously throughout the metal community. Give it a few more listens before you write it off. Pay close attention to the drums; everything else will fall into place once you can follow the (initially baffling) rhythms

Oh, by no means do I mean to write it off.  And you are correct, as I give the album more time and the songs more listens, the organization of the songs is becoming more clear and intriguing.  I give albums time to grow on me before I judge them, but for sure this album has the potential to become something I would rate highly.  I did not find the rhythms baffling, more just interesting and very original at times.  As of yet though, I still would not place the complexity of this music as being higher than say, Fates Warning's second and third albums.  But that has little to do with quality anyway.  Perhaps Deicide was not the best choice to lump in with simple death metal.  Regardless, the general point I was making is that a lot of death metal was and is simple.  In fact, I recall the Deicide debut being on the simpler side of things.

Quote
Why do you emphasize the American scene? The artists in question didn't. Metallica has done a Discharge cover, and Megadeth did a Sex Pistols cover, so I certainly wouldn't exclude the British bands from the chain of influence. You've also got to take the works of The Misfits/Samhain into account. As far as other influences on death metal go, the importance of Celtic Frost/Hellhammer cannot be overstated.

These guys often did not even know what bands overseas looked like.  They also were less likely to be influenced by their attitude and dress because they didn't hang around them, befriend them, or play/tour with them.  They didn't see each other at shows.  Misfits were not really hardcore punk, the punk that played the biggest role in thrash attitude and music, although you are right that they are not to be dismissed either.  I think we can agree that bands like DRI had a bigger influence on the bay area thrash scene than Misfits.  You can check many sources and see that most of the thrash scene was anti-image, especially in bay area, and that ideal came from somewhere.  they were picking up on the punk/hardcore bands who were doing what they liked.

Quote
Given your aesthetic and musical preferences, I think that you would enjoy the entirety of Absu's corpus, with the exception of their latest lp. Their work is a summation of metal's history until the present day.

I'm unfamiliar with most of the classic works of traditional metal, so I'll just include my favorite words of every other genre. Note that this list does not even come close to being exhaustive.

1.Pierced From Within-Suffocation
2.Blessed Are The Sick-Morbid Angel
3.Here In After-Immolation
4.Nespithe-Demilich
5.Obscura-Gorguts
6.To The Depths...In Degradation-Infester
7.Inbreeding The Anthropophagi-Deeds Of Flesh
8.Beneath The Remains-Sepultura
9.Far Away From The Sun-Sacramentum
10.Unquestionable Presence-Atheist

Also, be sure to give my namesake a listen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tONQf1psfLI

Thanks.  I'm checking this music out now.  Your namesake appears to be very worthy.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 04:15:39 AM
These differences in opinion is where the subjectivity of quality comes in.  For example, what I like about that Demon album is that it touched me like no other record as a statement

I can't believe that any of the regulars are still paying any attention to this guy.

Well, I take art seriously and that means that I allow it to move me emotionally.  Yes, that means certain albums touch me, and it would be best for you as a fan of this music to try and connect with it more intimately, which seems to be what you are criticizing me for me.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 05:29:48 AM
How exactly are we defining simple here?

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 08:22:51 AM
These differences in opinion is where the subjectivity of quality comes in.  For example, what I like about that Demon album is that it touched me like no other record as a statement

I can't believe that any of the regulars are still paying any attention to this guy.

Well, I take art seriously and that means that I allow it to move me emotionally.  Yes, that means certain albums touch me, and it would be best for you as a fan of this music to try and connect with it more intimately, which seems to be what you are criticizing me for me.

I've put in bold the words which I had a problem with.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 08:28:54 AM
For example, what I like about that Demon album is that it touched me inappropriately

fixed that for ya

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 01:21:43 PM
How exactly are we defining simple here?

The message of the ideas, the complexity of the arrangement, the variety of emotions generated, etc. are not difficult to follow or require much critical thinking.  The music is a journey with a vast variety of intriguing stops, detours, and scenery.

These differences in opinion is where the subjectivity of quality comes in.  For example, what I like about that Demon album is that it touched me like no other record as a statement

I can't believe that any of the regulars are still paying any attention to this guy.

Well, I take art seriously and that means that I allow it to move me emotionally.  Yes, that means certain albums touch me, and it would be best for you as a fan of this music to try and connect with it more intimately, which seems to be what you are criticizing me for me.

I've put in bold the words which I had a problem with.

You do not like music with a message?

For example, what I like about that Demon album is that it touched me inappropriately

fixed that for ya

I'd let it.  It rocks enough.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 03:44:58 PM
Quote
Why do you emphasize the American scene? The artists in question didn't. Metallica has done a Discharge cover, and Megadeth did a Sex Pistols cover, so I certainly wouldn't exclude the British bands from the chain of influence. You've also got to take the works of The Misfits/Samhain into account. As far as other influences on death metal go, the importance of Celtic Frost/Hellhammer cannot be overstated.

These guys often did not even know what bands overseas looked like.  They also were less likely to be influenced by their attitude and dress because they didn't hang around them, befriend them, or play/tour with them.  They didn't see each other at shows.  Misfits were not really hardcore punk, the punk that played the biggest role in thrash attitude and music, although you are right that they are not to be dismissed either.  I think we can agree that bands like DRI had a bigger influence on the bay area thrash scene than Misfits.  You can check many sources and see that most of the thrash scene was anti-image, especially in bay area, and that ideal came from somewhere.  they were picking up on the punk/hardcore bands who were doing what they liked.
Zines(the metal community's primary mode of communication in those days) would often include photographs of the bands featured in the text, so there was a very good chance that they had an accurate understanding of the other bands' images. Other than that, you are right on this point.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 03:56:43 PM
You do not like music with a message?

I don't like music of which the conscious message is more prominent than the subconscious revelation.  I also don't like people who pay any heed at all to the supposed "message" of things.  Then again, I don't really inhabit this human world.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 04:56:14 PM
You do not like music with a message?

I don't like music of which the conscious message is more prominent than the subconscious revelation.  I also don't like people who pay any heed at all to the supposed "message" of things.  Then again, I don't really inhabit this human world.

Ah, okay.  Do you have a rational reason for disliking overt messages, or is it merely a personal preference that music lack them?

Quote
Why do you emphasize the American scene? The artists in question didn't. Metallica has done a Discharge cover, and Megadeth did a Sex Pistols cover, so I certainly wouldn't exclude the British bands from the chain of influence. You've also got to take the works of The Misfits/Samhain into account. As far as other influences on death metal go, the importance of Celtic Frost/Hellhammer cannot be overstated.

These guys often did not even know what bands overseas looked like.  They also were less likely to be influenced by their attitude and dress because they didn't hang around them, befriend them, or play/tour with them.  They didn't see each other at shows.  Misfits were not really hardcore punk, the punk that played the biggest role in thrash attitude and music, although you are right that they are not to be dismissed either.  I think we can agree that bands like DRI had a bigger influence on the bay area thrash scene than Misfits.  You can check many sources and see that most of the thrash scene was anti-image, especially in bay area, and that ideal came from somewhere.  they were picking up on the punk/hardcore bands who were doing what they liked.
Zines(the metal community's primary mode of communication in those days) would often include photographs of the bands featured in the text, so there was a very good chance that they had an accurate understanding of the other bands' images. Other than that, you are right on this point.

That's a good point about zines, and of course some albums had band photos.  There was a lot of tape trading too, so that would really explain alot of inconsistincies and exceptions with the rules of thumb.  The world was a bigger place.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 05:18:23 PM
Ah, okay.  Do you have a rational reason for disliking overt messages, or is it merely a personal preference that music lack them?

The music which most affects (and affected) my perspective and way of life was not designed to do so in any specific way - no new rules are forced upon the listener, only vague glimpses of new vistas, from which conclusions can be drawn (and re-drawn) based upon experience and understanding.  Eventually, this process leads to a refinement of knowledge, yielding truth.  Burzum, for example, has brought me an understanding of detachment, from Humanity, from the physical/material world, from unnecessary emotions/thoughts, and so on.  The only intention was that the music take the listener on a journey, through dreams and dreamscapes.  A result of my own listening to Burzum, however, has been "spiritual evolution", for want of a better term.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 16, 2010, 06:09:27 PM
My complaint against most music "with a message" is that it is purely of its time. Consider the spat of pop punk groups that made albums after 9-11 complaining about Bush jr.'s policies; no one listens to any of those records anymore because they have lost their immediacy.